Comments on: GAS VALUED AT €420 BILLION OFF THE WEST COAST OF IRELAND, WHILE FIANNA FÁIL SPEEDS US TOWARDS THE IMF http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/ It's a group blog. What more do you need to know? Thu, 24 May 2012 16:06:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.1 By: Lee http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75322 Lee Thu, 02 Dec 2010 03:21:39 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75322 http://upsidedownworld.org/main/bolivia-archives-31/281-bolivias-gas-nationalization-a-south-american-affair an interesting article on bolivian nationalisation of gas reserves, and how regional tensions were resolved. http://upsidedownworld.org/main/bolivia-archives-31/281-bolivias-gas-nationalization-a-south-american-affair
an interesting article on bolivian nationalisation of gas reserves, and how regional tensions were resolved.

]]> By: garglamel http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75316 garglamel Tue, 30 Nov 2010 07:12:45 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75316 Have to commend Conor on his absolutely correct response to the Green rep above. I voted for those fucking lying careerists and the disappearance of all the current crop can't come soon enough. Since the Corrib issue was brought to light 10 years ago by the (ongoing) sacrifice of local people, it's been clear to anyone who can read that the whole thing stinks. We need renogotiation Russian style. Think Sakhalin project. Have to commend Conor on his absolutely correct response to the Green rep above.
I voted for those fucking lying careerists and the disappearance of all the current crop can’t come soon enough.
Since the Corrib issue was brought to light 10 years ago by the (ongoing) sacrifice of local people, it’s been clear to anyone who can read that the whole thing stinks.
We need renogotiation Russian style. Think Sakhalin project.

]]> By: Cute Political Hoors http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75294 Cute Political Hoors Sun, 28 Nov 2010 01:54:50 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75294 Statoil made 2.4 billion profit last quarter, how much did the government make? One of the semi state companys (ESB or Board na Mona are probably the most suitable) should be tasked with developing our natural resources immediately, I think everyone and their dog releize that with the size of our territorial waters 420 billion is quite a conservative figure, one oil or gas field and the IMF and recession are history... while we have teacher and solicotors running the country I can see it happening, history has shown that... While Norway developed their natural resources for the good of all their people, successive Irish governments have consistently sold out our people, whether its ignorance or stupidity I cant tell... In the 70's we sold possibly our greatest resource, our fish, to keep our farmers happy, in the 80's & 90's we sold off swathes of oil & gas rights possibly worth tens of billions... its over 30 years since Statoil was established by the Norwegian governement... why are we still waiting? Statoil made 2.4 billion profit last quarter, how much did the government make?

One of the semi state companys (ESB or Board na Mona are probably the most suitable) should be tasked with developing our natural resources immediately, I think everyone and their dog releize that with the size of our territorial waters 420 billion is quite a conservative figure, one oil or gas field and the IMF and recession are history…

while we have teacher and solicotors running the country I can see it happening, history has shown that…

While Norway developed their natural resources for the good of all their people, successive Irish governments have consistently sold out our people, whether its ignorance or stupidity I cant tell…

In the 70’s we sold possibly our greatest resource, our fish, to keep our farmers happy, in the 80’s & 90’s we sold off swathes of oil & gas rights possibly worth tens of billions…

its over 30 years since Statoil was established by the Norwegian governement…

why are we still waiting?

]]> By: bren http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75292 bren Sat, 27 Nov 2010 20:40:35 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75292 Hi! Well done continuing the life -blood of publicity to this Disgraceful Unforgivable 'sacking of resources. Tell the EU to fuck off & leave it.-they'd come running back snappish.They stabbed us in the back after making utter fools VOTE TWICE!! Turn the place into an ideal-Cuba. Bring back 50/50 smoking & let old folks in remote locations drive to socialise.Let Cannabis be cultivated freely & put the Tax into the peoples pockets. Everyone is scared shitless by a controlled vicious, control both- sides- of the same argument media. The truth telling of the 'net has wised the rest of us up. What an absolute Banker backed bunch of slime-bags we will hopefully be never seeing again. The good will out.Lifes not meant to be like Orwell predicted. Anybody would be more capable & reasonable with the Tax-pot than these Bastards. Sorry-i have'nt much blood pressure to contemplate what went on that 100% of this oil going to scumbag shell-they must be chem-trailing our skies. Wakey wakey from our deep hypnotised slumber folks-i'm as Guilty as the next man. It should be treated as a serious illness to vote these FF/FG?green!! self-serving Reptilians. Thanks for your great platform. Keep up this Wonderful Work. Hi!
Well done continuing the life -blood of publicity to this Disgraceful Unforgivable ’sacking of resources.
Tell the EU to fuck off & leave it.-they’d come running back snappish.They stabbed us in the back after making utter fools VOTE TWICE!!
Turn the place into an ideal-Cuba.
Bring back 50/50 smoking & let old folks in remote locations drive to socialise.Let Cannabis be cultivated freely & put the Tax into the peoples pockets.
Everyone is scared shitless by a controlled vicious, control both- sides- of the same argument media.
The truth telling of the ‘net has wised the rest of us up.
What an absolute Banker backed bunch of slime-bags we will hopefully be never seeing again.
The good will out.Lifes not meant to be like Orwell predicted.
Anybody would be more capable & reasonable with the Tax-pot than these Bastards.
Sorry-i have’nt much blood pressure to contemplate what went on that 100% of this oil going to scumbag shell-they must be chem-trailing our skies.
Wakey wakey from our deep hypnotised slumber folks-i’m as Guilty as the next man.
It should be treated as a serious illness to vote these FF/FG?green!! self-serving Reptilians.
Thanks for your great platform.
Keep up this Wonderful Work.

]]> By: 2+2=4 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75215 2+2=4 Mon, 15 Nov 2010 04:13:49 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75215 Watch the documentary "The Take" (2004) and learn how to keep Ireland Irish!!! Another excellent documentary is " The Yes Men Fix the World" (2009). United, not divided, we as a people deserve to be SOVEREIGN & FREE!!! Stop the BANKERS from killing our finest for the sole purpose they can then ENSLAVE the remaining worker ANTZ (1998)!!! Pass the Popcorn and Lock 'n' Load Watch the documentary “The Take” (2004) and learn how to keep Ireland Irish!!! Another excellent documentary is ” The Yes Men Fix the World” (2009). United, not divided, we as a people deserve to be SOVEREIGN & FREE!!!

Stop the BANKERS from killing our finest for the sole purpose they can then ENSLAVE the remaining worker ANTZ (1998)!!!

Pass the Popcorn and Lock ‘n’ Load

]]> By: Praxis http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75153 Praxis Sun, 07 Nov 2010 21:41:24 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75153 Ireland has one of the lowest rates of government take anywhere in the world (through the 25% tax rate) as even the DCENR has acknowledged in reports they've sponsored including the Fox (2003) and Indecon (2007) reports. And Ireland won't see anywhere near 25% of the actual value of a a field as companies can offset all costs acrued over a previous 25 year period. Likewise, the 2007 terms with the additional tax rate of 5 to 15%, via the profit resource rent tax, is applied after all costs have been offset, the corporate tax has been paid & then the figure is calculated on a ratio of capital investment to profits. therefore, Ireland won't actually receive close to 40% of the value of a field. The current government has said it will not renegotiate, so we won't get 30 to 40% of the value of our gas and oil as Tim has suggested. Radical changes are needed for Ireland to actually benefit from its gas and oil, which won't happen while fianna fail and friends are in power. If we want change, we can take a leaf out of Norway's book - 78% tax rate, state participation through the State Direct Financial Interest, and the state receives significant funds through its 67% ownership of Statoil. Interestingly, Norway developed its industry by requiring international oil companies to work with the then completely state owned oil company Statoil, hence developing indigenous knowledge and ability. Or we can follow the example of more than half the producing countries worldwide who use a contractual system, rather than a licensing system like Ireland, which means the state contracts international or national oil companies to explore for and produce their hydrcarbons, with the companies carrying the costs of the E &P. In such a system, the state retains ownership and control while the co's do the work. there are many possibilites for better management of our gas and oil and at the end of the day our country cannot afford to give away its gas and oil as is currently happening. Ireland has one of the lowest rates of government take anywhere in the world (through the 25% tax rate) as even the DCENR has acknowledged in reports they’ve sponsored including the Fox (2003) and Indecon (2007) reports. And Ireland won’t see anywhere near 25% of the actual value of a a field as companies can offset all costs acrued over a previous 25 year period. Likewise, the 2007 terms with the additional tax rate of 5 to 15%, via the profit resource rent tax, is applied after all costs have been offset, the corporate tax has been paid & then the figure is calculated on a ratio of capital investment to profits. therefore, Ireland won’t actually receive close to 40% of the value of a field.

The current government has said it will not renegotiate, so we won’t get 30 to 40% of the value of our gas and oil as Tim has suggested. Radical changes are needed for Ireland to actually benefit from its gas and oil, which won’t happen while fianna fail and friends are in power. If we want change, we can take a leaf out of Norway’s book - 78% tax rate, state participation through the State Direct Financial Interest, and the state receives significant funds through its 67% ownership of Statoil. Interestingly, Norway developed its industry by requiring international oil companies to work with the then completely state owned oil company Statoil, hence developing indigenous knowledge and ability.

Or we can follow the example of more than half the producing countries worldwide who use a contractual system, rather than a licensing system like Ireland, which means the state contracts international or national oil companies to explore for and produce their hydrcarbons, with the companies carrying the costs of the E &P. In such a system, the state retains ownership and control while the co’s do the work.

there are many possibilites for better management of our gas and oil and at the end of the day our country cannot afford to give away its gas and oil as is currently happening.

]]> By: Elias http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75111 Elias Mon, 01 Nov 2010 18:59:19 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75111 I think he meant incredibly low. I think he meant incredibly low.

]]> By: Tim Johnston http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75109 Tim Johnston Mon, 01 Nov 2010 18:27:15 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75109 William, I still don't get how 25% is "paltry". We might get 30-40% if we renegotiate, but how much do you think is enough and on what basis? William, I still don’t get how 25% is “paltry”. We might get 30-40% if we renegotiate, but how much do you think is enough and on what basis?

]]> By: William http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75095 William Mon, 01 Nov 2010 11:48:39 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75095 The Government's "new exploration tax regime" -- introduced by Eamon Ryan in 2007 and referred to by Damian above -- represents no more than a minor tinkering with a relatively unimportant aspect of the licensing regime. The 40 per cent tax rate will only apply to the most profitable fields; many companies will continue to pay a paltry 25 per cent tax on profits. And in all cases, the companies can write off costs incurred outside the State before declaring these profits. Secondly, it is not retrospective, so Corrib and other fields already given away are not affected. Thirdly and most importantly, the State will still take no stake in the oil/gas itself; and companies will pay no royalties on gas or oil extracted. The Government’s “new exploration tax regime” — introduced by Eamon Ryan in 2007 and referred to by Damian above — represents no more than a minor tinkering with a relatively unimportant aspect of the licensing regime. The 40 per cent tax rate will only apply to the most profitable fields; many companies will continue to pay a paltry 25 per cent tax on profits. And in all cases, the companies can write off costs incurred outside the State before declaring these profits.
Secondly, it is not retrospective, so Corrib and other fields already given away are not affected.
Thirdly and most importantly, the State will still take no stake in the oil/gas itself; and companies will pay no royalties on gas or oil extracted.

]]> By: Tim Johnston http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75090 Tim Johnston Mon, 01 Nov 2010 06:29:16 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/10/30/e420-billion-of-gas-off-the-west-coast-of-ireland-while-fianna-fail-speeds-us-towards-the-imf/#comment-75090 That was a bizarre reaction to Damien's (above) quite reasonable comment. To answer his question, 68% is not the average tax rate, it's the "government take" which includes royalties and the other ways government takes a share of natural resources. That average is also pulled upwards by the many countries with high takes, such as Bolivia - which sent in its army to take over production facilities, and are hardly worthy of imitating. Even comparison to near rivals might be counterproductive, as the aim is to undercut them not to match them. Ive read the Shell to Sea factsheet and wish they'd get their facts right. The gas is not "worth" 420bn Euro. It's worth zip unless it's found, extracted, processed and sold on the open market, which costs "a lot of money" to use S2S' own words. Gas prices are also highly volatile so that figure changes on a daily basis. They can write off their costs against tax. Yes, all companies can do that, it's not unusual. The reason they extracting companies won't be paying any tax for a while, if Rapple is to be believed, is that they won't be making any profits for a while. He seems to be suggesting that they'll be making profits without paying tax, which is incorrect. There are no royalties because taxing profits is just less complicated that having royalties and taxes. Having said that, 25% is incredibly low, and the DCENR report has good suggestions regarding this. Having said all that, we should get maybe a government take of 35%. With that in mind Eamon Ryan made the right decision. That was a bizarre reaction to Damien’s (above) quite reasonable comment. To answer his question, 68% is not the average tax rate, it’s the “government take” which includes royalties and the other ways government takes a share of natural resources. That average is also pulled upwards by the many countries with high takes, such as Bolivia - which sent in its army to take over production facilities, and are hardly worthy of imitating. Even comparison to near rivals might be counterproductive, as the aim is to undercut them not to match them.

Ive read the Shell to Sea factsheet and wish they’d get their facts right. The gas is not “worth” 420bn Euro. It’s worth zip unless it’s found, extracted, processed and sold on the open market, which costs “a lot of money” to use S2S’ own words. Gas prices are also highly volatile so that figure changes on a daily basis.
They can write off their costs against tax. Yes, all companies can do that, it’s not unusual. The reason they extracting companies won’t be paying any tax for a while, if Rapple is to be believed, is that they won’t be making any profits for a while. He seems to be suggesting that they’ll be making profits without paying tax, which is incorrect.
There are no royalties because taxing profits is just less complicated that having royalties and taxes. Having said that, 25% is incredibly low, and the DCENR report has good suggestions regarding this.
Having said all that, we should get maybe a government take of 35%. With that in mind Eamon Ryan made the right decision.

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