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	<title>Comments on: In What Distant Deeps Or Skies, Burnt The Fire Of Thine Eyes?</title>
	<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/</link>
	<description>Life should be full of strangeness, like a rich painting</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jun 2013 04:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Dee Nick</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73625</link>
		<author>Dee Nick</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 15:29:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73625</guid>
		<description>tomboktu - your conclusion is absolutely spot on. BTLs were the biggest scam perpetuated on a whole generation . Unless Mom and Dad were willing to fork out, they would have been left with no option but to keep throwing money after someone else's mortgage,  with absolutely nothing other than a  (temporary) roof over their head in return. The one thing people need is security in relation to housing, otherwise it isn't a home.   

if you didn't climb onto the property ladder sooner, rather than later, you would wind up paying Weimar Republic prices for just a bit of shelter. 

Greed ignites booms, but panic drives them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tomboktu - your conclusion is absolutely spot on. BTLs were the biggest scam perpetuated on a whole generation . Unless Mom and Dad were willing to fork out, they would have been left with no option but to keep throwing money after someone else&#8217;s mortgage,  with absolutely nothing other than a  (temporary) roof over their head in return. The one thing people need is security in relation to housing, otherwise it isn&#8217;t a home.   </p>
<p>if you didn&#8217;t climb onto the property ladder sooner, rather than later, you would wind up paying Weimar Republic prices for just a bit of shelter. </p>
<p>Greed ignites booms, but panic drives them.</p>
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		<title>By: Tomboktu</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73617</link>
		<author>Tomboktu</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jun 2010 23:12:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73617</guid>
		<description>I don't know if your analysis will look at a different dimension to the nature of the market for housing/mortgages: the rules governing private rented accommodation. Unfortunately, my 'insights' on this are not drawn on statistical data or a systematic analysis, but a handful of anecdotes. But they might provide food for thought.

&lt;strong&gt;Anecdote one.&lt;/strong&gt; Some years ago, RTÉ Radio had a short series of 15-minute programmes where a public figure spoke about a European country they had a particular grá for. David Hanley was one of the presenters, and his country was Denmark. The reason was how private rented tneants awere treated, as told through an account of how a journalistic colleague in DK had to handle the house he owned. Mr DK got a promotion that entailed a move to another city. He decided to rent out his home in the original city, rather than sell it.

Some years later, he got transferred back to his original city, and initiated -- without any grumbling -- the process of ending his tenant's tenancy. Because he had been away from a number of years, he had to give his tenant a full year's notice &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; he had to go to the local court to prove that the eviction was so that he could re-occupy the house and not because he wanted to re-let it at a higher rate. Unless my memory is playing tricks (and this programme was so long ago, it could be), this court appearance was automatic, and not because the tenant objected. The rationale for this system, Hanley explained, was that the rented property had become the tenant's home and he was entitled to strong protection of his right to that home.

&lt;strong&gt;Anecdote two.&lt;/strong&gt; A decade ago, an Austrian friend put me up in his apartment in Vienna. He was renting, and we got talking about the way the system worked. Two things struck me as interesting: (a) his rent was index linked and (b) his landlord was a pension fund for one of the public sector unions. The first of these meant that when the demand for housing in Vienna rose rapidly during the Bosnian wars, his rent did not go up in pace with the rise in rents for new tenancies. (It's possible that his rent was affected by that if that fed into the index to which his rent was linked, but even then it would be diluted.)

&lt;strong&gt;Anecdote three.&lt;/strong&gt; I seem to recall -- this could be checked reasonably easily, but I'm not in the mood to! -- that when the law on private rented tenancies here was changed a few years ago, the minister refused to amend the bill to the maximum permitted rent increases to an consumer or retail index (do we have both of those? I became aware of the possibility that there could be a difference only this week when I saw some of the coverage of the UK budget and the linking of some social welfare benefits in it to the "wrong" one of those indices). Instead, private rents would be allowed to increase with the market for private rents.

&lt;strong&gt;Connclusion.&lt;/strong&gt; It seems to me that one of the factors that probably helped with the driving up of house prices was the state of the private rented market and its regulation in Ireland. With poor security of tenure and little (indeed, "no"?) protection against exorbitant rent increases, many of those who earned too much to qualify for local authority housing were forced to play the buying game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know if your analysis will look at a different dimension to the nature of the market for housing/mortgages: the rules governing private rented accommodation. Unfortunately, my &#8216;insights&#8217; on this are not drawn on statistical data or a systematic analysis, but a handful of anecdotes. But they might provide food for thought.</p>
<p><strong>Anecdote one.</strong> Some years ago, RTÉ Radio had a short series of 15-minute programmes where a public figure spoke about a European country they had a particular grá for. David Hanley was one of the presenters, and his country was Denmark. The reason was how private rented tneants awere treated, as told through an account of how a journalistic colleague in DK had to handle the house he owned. Mr DK got a promotion that entailed a move to another city. He decided to rent out his home in the original city, rather than sell it.</p>
<p>Some years later, he got transferred back to his original city, and initiated &#8212; without any grumbling &#8212; the process of ending his tenant&#8217;s tenancy. Because he had been away from a number of years, he had to give his tenant a full year&#8217;s notice <i>and</i> he had to go to the local court to prove that the eviction was so that he could re-occupy the house and not because he wanted to re-let it at a higher rate. Unless my memory is playing tricks (and this programme was so long ago, it could be), this court appearance was automatic, and not because the tenant objected. The rationale for this system, Hanley explained, was that the rented property had become the tenant&#8217;s home and he was entitled to strong protection of his right to that home.</p>
<p><strong>Anecdote two.</strong> A decade ago, an Austrian friend put me up in his apartment in Vienna. He was renting, and we got talking about the way the system worked. Two things struck me as interesting: (a) his rent was index linked and (b) his landlord was a pension fund for one of the public sector unions. The first of these meant that when the demand for housing in Vienna rose rapidly during the Bosnian wars, his rent did not go up in pace with the rise in rents for new tenancies. (It&#8217;s possible that his rent was affected by that if that fed into the index to which his rent was linked, but even then it would be diluted.)</p>
<p><strong>Anecdote three.</strong> I seem to recall &#8212; this could be checked reasonably easily, but I&#8217;m not in the mood to! &#8212; that when the law on private rented tenancies here was changed a few years ago, the minister refused to amend the bill to the maximum permitted rent increases to an consumer or retail index (do we have both of those? I became aware of the possibility that there could be a difference only this week when I saw some of the coverage of the UK budget and the linking of some social welfare benefits in it to the &#8220;wrong&#8221; one of those indices). Instead, private rents would be allowed to increase with the market for private rents.</p>
<p><strong>Connclusion.</strong> It seems to me that one of the factors that probably helped with the driving up of house prices was the state of the private rented market and its regulation in Ireland. With poor security of tenure and little (indeed, &#8220;no&#8221;?) protection against exorbitant rent increases, many of those who earned too much to qualify for local authority housing were forced to play the buying game.</p>
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		<title>By: Conor McCabe</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73606</link>
		<author>Conor McCabe</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jun 2010 15:14:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73606</guid>
		<description>:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> <img src='http://dublinopinion.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: LeftAtTheCross</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73605</link>
		<author>LeftAtTheCross</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73605</guid>
		<description>Good stuff. Don't give us all the answers just yet anyhow, I want a reason to get your book when it comes out :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good stuff. Don&#8217;t give us all the answers just yet anyhow, I want a reason to get your book when it comes out <img src='http://dublinopinion.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Conor McCabe</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73604</link>
		<author>Conor McCabe</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:45:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73604</guid>
		<description>Just on public funding. 80% of ALL housing built in the state from 1923 to 1991 was funded in some measure by the public purse. Very, very few people built a house without state grants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just on public funding. 80% of ALL housing built in the state from 1923 to 1991 was funded in some measure by the public purse. Very, very few people built a house without state grants.</p>
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		<title>By: Conor McCabe</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73603</link>
		<author>Conor McCabe</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73603</guid>
		<description>I don't have the answer to all those questions at the moment Left, but up to the 1980s the second-largest provider of mortgages were local authorities. Basically, up to 1975 it was building societies, local authorities, and assurance companies. 

Here's a breakdown in Excel. I still have to graph the figures, but you might find them interesting. The figures come from the 1970s Quarterly Household Bulletin.

&lt;img src="http://www.irishlabour.com/dublinopinion/home-loans-lender.jpg" alt="" /&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have the answer to all those questions at the moment Left, but up to the 1980s the second-largest provider of mortgages were local authorities. Basically, up to 1975 it was building societies, local authorities, and assurance companies. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a breakdown in Excel. I still have to graph the figures, but you might find them interesting. The figures come from the 1970s Quarterly Household Bulletin.</p>
<p><img src="http://www.irishlabour.com/dublinopinion/home-loans-lender.jpg" alt="" /></p>
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		<title>By: LeftAtTheCross</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73602</link>
		<author>LeftAtTheCross</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:27:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73602</guid>
		<description>Your point is a good one about the state actively distorting the market, and the cultural norms of society, by promoting privatisation of the public housing stock. Is there any evidence from the time whether the developers viewed this as a positive or a negative, like whether they saw the state as a competitor in the market to sell housing units? Also, how was the purchase of privatised housing financed mostly, was it via the commercial banking sector,  i.e. normal mortages, or were there public loan schemes in place where people could borrow from the local authority, in which case did the private banking sector see the state as a rival in teh market to sell housing-related debt?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your point is a good one about the state actively distorting the market, and the cultural norms of society, by promoting privatisation of the public housing stock. Is there any evidence from the time whether the developers viewed this as a positive or a negative, like whether they saw the state as a competitor in the market to sell housing units? Also, how was the purchase of privatised housing financed mostly, was it via the commercial banking sector,  i.e. normal mortages, or were there public loan schemes in place where people could borrow from the local authority, in which case did the private banking sector see the state as a rival in teh market to sell housing-related debt?</p>
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		<title>By: Conor McCabe</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73600</link>
		<author>Conor McCabe</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:13:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73600</guid>
		<description>Well that's true Left, but at the same time I was brought up on a Dublin corporation housing estate, where the idea of owning your own home was the same as the idea of owning your own helicopter. As one of my neighbours told me last year when I interviewed her for the oral archive, when the Dublin Corporation Buy-out scheme came into operation in the mid to late 1970s, and houses were being sold for 5,000 pounds, to her 5,000 pounds might as well have been 5 million pounds. It was only because of the local councillor - Sean Kenny - who talked her into going for the purchase scheme that she now owns her house. Virtually the same thing was said to me by my uncle, who lives in Finglas. Again, he rented his corporation house from 1949 up to the late 1970s, when the purchase scheme came in. He would still be renting now were it not for that scheme. 

There's a great study on housing done by Tony Fahey, where he looks at home ownership and social housing in Ireland, and he talks about these government purchase schemes. He found that at least 25% of all private housing in Ireland comes from the buy-out schemes. In other words, where it not for the privatisation of social housing, particularly urban social housing from 1967 onwards, we'd be looking at private/rental housing in Ireland in the order of 60/40 - 60% private, 40% rental, about the same rate as Austria, France and the Netherlands. The majority of households would be privately-owned households, but you wouldn't have an economy based around it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well that&#8217;s true Left, but at the same time I was brought up on a Dublin corporation housing estate, where the idea of owning your own home was the same as the idea of owning your own helicopter. As one of my neighbours told me last year when I interviewed her for the oral archive, when the Dublin Corporation Buy-out scheme came into operation in the mid to late 1970s, and houses were being sold for 5,000 pounds, to her 5,000 pounds might as well have been 5 million pounds. It was only because of the local councillor - Sean Kenny - who talked her into going for the purchase scheme that she now owns her house. Virtually the same thing was said to me by my uncle, who lives in Finglas. Again, he rented his corporation house from 1949 up to the late 1970s, when the purchase scheme came in. He would still be renting now were it not for that scheme. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s a great study on housing done by Tony Fahey, where he looks at home ownership and social housing in Ireland, and he talks about these government purchase schemes. He found that at least 25% of all private housing in Ireland comes from the buy-out schemes. In other words, where it not for the privatisation of social housing, particularly urban social housing from 1967 onwards, we&#8217;d be looking at private/rental housing in Ireland in the order of 60/40 - 60% private, 40% rental, about the same rate as Austria, France and the Netherlands. The majority of households would be privately-owned households, but you wouldn&#8217;t have an economy based around it.</p>
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		<title>By: LeftAtTheCross</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73599</link>
		<author>LeftAtTheCross</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jun 2010 13:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73599</guid>
		<description>I think you're doing a convincing job of exposing that it was all about selling mortgages rather than building homes, and that it goes back for decades. One thing at the back of my mind, which is that you're painting a very one-sided picture in a sense, which is ok as a polemic as we've had nothing but the other side as brainwash for years. But I'm thinking back to the early 70s when I was a young kid growing up on one of the new private estates in Dublin's outer 'burbs, my parents were the same sort of people bought into that suburban dream of home ownership as the more recent crop who bought into that dream in Gorey or Navan or wherever. My parents grew up in corporation housing in the Liberties and Crumlin, and they actively wanted to move out to the 'burbs and live that middle-class dream of owning their own home and getting away from the social problems where they came from. My point is that in your analysis of how the financial industry colluded with developers and government to fleece working people of the fruits of their labour, i.e. by selling them property at an inflated price relative to prices in other countries for example, you are over-looking or at least disregarding the very real desire of those individuals to step onto the private property ladder. There are push and a pull factors at play, supply and demand, and your analysis is quite rightly focusing on the distortion of the market by the suppliers, but maybe you should pay some attention to the demand also? Of course in an ideal world we'd have state provision of decent housing for all, which would remove that aspirant middle-class home ownership dynamic...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;re doing a convincing job of exposing that it was all about selling mortgages rather than building homes, and that it goes back for decades. One thing at the back of my mind, which is that you&#8217;re painting a very one-sided picture in a sense, which is ok as a polemic as we&#8217;ve had nothing but the other side as brainwash for years. But I&#8217;m thinking back to the early 70s when I was a young kid growing up on one of the new private estates in Dublin&#8217;s outer &#8216;burbs, my parents were the same sort of people bought into that suburban dream of home ownership as the more recent crop who bought into that dream in Gorey or Navan or wherever. My parents grew up in corporation housing in the Liberties and Crumlin, and they actively wanted to move out to the &#8216;burbs and live that middle-class dream of owning their own home and getting away from the social problems where they came from. My point is that in your analysis of how the financial industry colluded with developers and government to fleece working people of the fruits of their labour, i.e. by selling them property at an inflated price relative to prices in other countries for example, you are over-looking or at least disregarding the very real desire of those individuals to step onto the private property ladder. There are push and a pull factors at play, supply and demand, and your analysis is quite rightly focusing on the distortion of the market by the suppliers, but maybe you should pay some attention to the demand also? Of course in an ideal world we&#8217;d have state provision of decent housing for all, which would remove that aspirant middle-class home ownership dynamic&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Conor McCabe</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73598</link>
		<author>Conor McCabe</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:39:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2010/06/24/in-what-distant-deeps-or-skies-burnt-the-fire-of-thine-eyes/#comment-73598</guid>
		<description>Thanks left. Yep. This is me teasing stuff out for the book. If you read anything and think it's wrong or doesn't make sense please let me know. I know I can get pig-ass moody in my comments but I do appreciate the criticism. I'm just not very good at expressing that appreciation.

The gas thing about the birth-rate as a factor in the housing boom is that it takes, what, at least 25 years from birth to mortgage? That would mean that Ireland should have been coming out of a 30-yr housing boom in late 1990s/early 2000s. But this was never about providing houses, it was all about providing mortgages, and if I can get that across in the book - what it means when a society has a housing policy focused on providing mortgages rather than dwellings - then I'll be happy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks left. Yep. This is me teasing stuff out for the book. If you read anything and think it&#8217;s wrong or doesn&#8217;t make sense please let me know. I know I can get pig-ass moody in my comments but I do appreciate the criticism. I&#8217;m just not very good at expressing that appreciation.</p>
<p>The gas thing about the birth-rate as a factor in the housing boom is that it takes, what, at least 25 years from birth to mortgage? That would mean that Ireland should have been coming out of a 30-yr housing boom in late 1990s/early 2000s. But this was never about providing houses, it was all about providing mortgages, and if I can get that across in the book - what it means when a society has a housing policy focused on providing mortgages rather than dwellings - then I&#8217;ll be happy.</p>
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