Comments on: I WILL SING OF THE WHITE BIRDS IN THE BLUE WATERS OF HEAVEN http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/ It's a group blog. What more do you need to know? Thu, 24 May 2012 09:13:58 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.1 By: LeftAtTheCross http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73412 LeftAtTheCross Thu, 03 Jun 2010 12:42:12 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73412 On the broader subject of land ownership, the Labour Land Campaign in Britain who are holding a conference in Lincoln university on Monday 28 June. "A day of talks and discussion about the policy of land taxation and what it can contribute to tackling the Budget deficit and the crisis in the housing market." http://www.labourland.org/downloads/Symposium_flyer.pdf Haven't read through their stuff yet but they look like an interesting bunch. On the broader subject of land ownership, the Labour Land Campaign in Britain who are holding a conference in Lincoln university on Monday 28 June.

“A day of talks and discussion about the policy of land taxation and what it can contribute to tackling the Budget deficit and the crisis in the housing market.”

http://www.labourland.org/downloads/Symposium_flyer.pdf

Haven’t read through their stuff yet but they look like an interesting bunch.

]]> By: Conor McCabe http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73397 Conor McCabe Wed, 02 Jun 2010 11:57:59 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73397 Thanks Adrian. My point is not so much that there wasn't a market for mortgages until the 1970s, rather that the credit wasn't available for a mortgage market outside of professionals and the higher end of the skilled working class to sustain itself. It's with the influx of huge amounts of credit into the Irish banking system - building societies, banks, assurance companies - mainly via American and German banks which set up in Ireland in the 1960s, that we see the artificial creation of owner-occupancy levels which are above the norm for most of Europe. It was incredibly difficult for most working class people (and most farmers under 50 acres) to get credit from banks until the mid-1960s. I think the aversion to lending is also tied into the fact that they wouldn't have gotten a loan anyway. The huge amount of lending which occurs in during the 1960s with regard to the calf subsidy scheme I think shows that there wasn't anything particularly cultural about not having loans; the loans weren't available in the first place. There's a dynamic going on here, it's not an either/or situation, but the outcome is being influenced by both sides. And the point about buying land and then building is well-made. I must try to find out how to track down figures for that. Thanks Adrian. My point is not so much that there wasn’t a market for mortgages until the 1970s, rather that the credit wasn’t available for a mortgage market outside of professionals and the higher end of the skilled working class to sustain itself. It’s with the influx of huge amounts of credit into the Irish banking system - building societies, banks, assurance companies - mainly via American and German banks which set up in Ireland in the 1960s, that we see the artificial creation of owner-occupancy levels which are above the norm for most of Europe.

It was incredibly difficult for most working class people (and most farmers under 50 acres) to get credit from banks until the mid-1960s. I think the aversion to lending is also tied into the fact that they wouldn’t have gotten a loan anyway. The huge amount of lending which occurs in during the 1960s with regard to the calf subsidy scheme I think shows that there wasn’t anything particularly cultural about not having loans; the loans weren’t available in the first place. There’s a dynamic going on here, it’s not an either/or situation, but the outcome is being influenced by both sides. And the point about buying land and then building is well-made. I must try to find out how to track down figures for that.

]]> By: Adrian Grant http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73396 Adrian Grant Wed, 02 Jun 2010 11:41:05 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73396 Conor, your point that there was no real market for mortgage lending until the 1970s is a good one. A point that backs it up further I think is this: In smaller towns (with large rural hinterlands) people tended to build their own houses but at a slow pace. They would finish another piece of the house when they had enough cash to do so. While I don't have the figures to prove this, if you talk to people who built their own houses in the 1960s and early 70s you'll find that many of them bought a piece of land with savings and lived in caravans on the land until the house was in any way habitable. It could have been ten years or more before the house was actually finished. I think this shows an aversion to the idea of mortgage lending even among those who wanted to own their own homes. p.s. I'm speaking here about working class people, not middle class professionals etc. Conor, your point that there was no real market for mortgage lending until the 1970s is a good one. A point that backs it up further I think is this: In smaller towns (with large rural hinterlands) people tended to build their own houses but at a slow pace. They would finish another piece of the house when they had enough cash to do so. While I don’t have the figures to prove this, if you talk to people who built their own houses in the 1960s and early 70s you’ll find that many of them bought a piece of land with savings and lived in caravans on the land until the house was in any way habitable. It could have been ten years or more before the house was actually finished. I think this shows an aversion to the idea of mortgage lending even among those who wanted to own their own homes.

p.s. I’m speaking here about working class people, not middle class professionals etc.

]]> By: Conor McCabe http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73344 Conor McCabe Thu, 27 May 2010 18:48:10 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73344 :) :)

]]> By: Eoin O'Mahony http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73340 Eoin O'Mahony Thu, 27 May 2010 13:21:18 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73340 A friend of mine defines geomorphology as "where's the dirt and how'd it get there?". We might replace 'dirt' with 'cash' and we're almost there. A friend of mine defines geomorphology as “where’s the dirt and how’d it get there?”. We might replace ‘dirt’ with ‘cash’ and we’re almost there.

]]> By: Conor McCabe http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73339 Conor McCabe Thu, 27 May 2010 10:41:20 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73339 That's a good mix! As regards geography, I'm thinking of Harvey, but also Ireland after NAMA, which is great in its physicalities approach to the property boom and our so-called miracle. That’s a good mix! As regards geography, I’m thinking of Harvey, but also Ireland after NAMA, which is great in its physicalities approach to the property boom and our so-called miracle.

]]> By: Eoin O'Mahony http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73338 Eoin O'Mahony Thu, 27 May 2010 09:31:16 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73338 Conor: glad to see you did a more comprehensive job on the numbers than I was prepared to. I see a paper somewhere here...seriously. As for your geographers vs economists and historians, I'm flattered but I've only recently come to it as a trained sociologist! That's a whole other story. I'll take the recognition though, if only to ingratiate myself with my warm new lovely fuzzy subject. Seriously though, while there are plenty of shopping-centres-go-here kinds of geographers who accept the conditions imposed by capital's imperatives, it is the critical geographers of the discipline who have the most to contribute. Economics tends to evacuate place from their blue books, historians the influence of culture. I'm not writing so much about this but still learning about it. Conor: glad to see you did a more comprehensive job on the numbers than I was prepared to. I see a paper somewhere here…seriously.

As for your geographers vs economists and historians, I’m flattered but I’ve only recently come to it as a trained sociologist! That’s a whole other story. I’ll take the recognition though, if only to ingratiate myself with my warm new lovely fuzzy subject. Seriously though, while there are plenty of shopping-centres-go-here kinds of geographers who accept the conditions imposed by capital’s imperatives, it is the critical geographers of the discipline who have the most to contribute. Economics tends to evacuate place from their blue books, historians the influence of culture. I’m not writing so much about this but still learning about it.

]]> By: Conor McCabe http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73323 Conor McCabe Wed, 26 May 2010 18:24:38 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73323 One other thing. Have to say Eoin, I'm envious of your discipline. While historians and economists have been farting around with personalities and papers of treaties, it's been geographers who have been fighting the good fight. The physical traces of capitalism are the most powerful arguments against it. One other thing. Have to say Eoin, I’m envious of your discipline. While historians and economists have been farting around with personalities and papers of treaties, it’s been geographers who have been fighting the good fight. The physical traces of capitalism are the most powerful arguments against it.

]]> By: Conor McCabe http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73321 Conor McCabe Wed, 26 May 2010 15:28:19 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73321 Cheers Eoin, and thanks for the figures. It shows the influence of the various land acts alright. In town areas in 1971 though the breakdown nationally was 49% owner-occupied, 51% rental (excluding tenant cottage purchase scheme. When that's taken into account the owner/rental ratio in town areas is 55/45. For the town areas of Dublin (including Dun Laoghaire) the breakdown is 52% owner-occupied, 48% rental (with the tenant cottage purchase scheme that goes to 57/43 breakdown, which shows the effect of government moves to privatize housing, even in 1971). The land acts of the late 19th and early 20th century had an affect on home ownership simply because the farms were homesteads. Yet, when all and sundry were calling for the shutting down of uneconomic farms in the 1960s, and for Irish farming to modernize, they weren't saying that the farmers should be made homeless, but that the land attached to the homestead should be sold on and merged with larger units. Yet, the myth of home ownership and land acts being one and the same persists, even though Irish government policy in the 1960s actively dis-encouraged small farming while subsidising the homestead itself. Cheers Eoin, and thanks for the figures. It shows the influence of the various land acts alright. In town areas in 1971 though the breakdown nationally was 49% owner-occupied, 51% rental (excluding tenant cottage purchase scheme. When that’s taken into account the owner/rental ratio in town areas is 55/45. For the town areas of Dublin (including Dun Laoghaire) the breakdown is 52% owner-occupied, 48% rental (with the tenant cottage purchase scheme that goes to 57/43 breakdown, which shows the effect of government moves to privatize housing, even in 1971). The land acts of the late 19th and early 20th century had an affect on home ownership simply because the farms were homesteads. Yet, when all and sundry were calling for the shutting down of uneconomic farms in the 1960s, and for Irish farming to modernize, they weren’t saying that the farmers should be made homeless, but that the land attached to the homestead should be sold on and merged with larger units. Yet, the myth of home ownership and land acts being one and the same persists, even though Irish government policy in the 1960s actively dis-encouraged small farming while subsidising the homestead itself.

]]> By: Eoin O'Mahony http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73319 Eoin O'Mahony Wed, 26 May 2010 10:11:47 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/05/25/i-will-sing-of-the-white-birds-in-the-blue-waters-of-heaven/#comment-73319 Conor: this is another fine piece of analysis of the history of property relations in Ireland. After your last comment I went to the historical Census files (for example, http://www.cso.ie/census/Census_1971_Volume_6.htm) and noted that in 1970 about 70% of the private housing units in Dublin were owner occupied. Smaller percentages rented from both local authorities and privately. The figure is about 60% owner occupancy for the state as a whole. I'm a nerd. Conor: this is another fine piece of analysis of the history of property relations in Ireland. After your last comment I went to the historical Census files (for example, http://www.cso.ie/census/Census_1971_Volume_6.htm) and noted that in 1970 about 70% of the private housing units in Dublin were owner occupied. Smaller percentages rented from both local authorities and privately. The figure is about 60% owner occupancy for the state as a whole.

I’m a nerd.

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