Comments on: SAM NOLAN AND THE 1979 TAX MARCHES http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/ It's a group blog. What more do you need to know? Thu, 24 May 2012 08:09:08 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.1 By: Irish Left Review · Sam Nolan at 80: A Short Documentary http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-75048 Irish Left Review · Sam Nolan at 80: A Short Documentary Fri, 29 Oct 2010 11:09:54 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-75048 [...] The PAYE marches are covered here. [...] […] The PAYE marches are covered here. […]

]]> By: john http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72864 john Wed, 14 Apr 2010 17:51:37 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72864 Thanks for the article - I really had no idea such a thing happened. Getting a sense of deja vu and all that! Thanks for the article - I really had no idea such a thing happened.
Getting a sense of deja vu and all that!

]]> By: Conor McCabe http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72725 Conor McCabe Mon, 05 Apr 2010 13:56:12 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72725 Hi Rian, I think the answer to your question is in the video clip, albeit obliquely. Many people marching thought that tax reform meant tax cuts. In other words, it is <em>not </em>obvious that so many people wanted tax reform - a lot of the people who marched just wanted tax cuts and were happy with tax cuts, and this was seized upon by the trade union leadership who signed up to the National Understanding agreements on the basis of tax cuts and modest pay increases. With the trade union leadership against the protests, a change in that leadership was needed. Now, in the 1980s there was no shortage of groups trying to take over the trade union leadership, including Communists, Trotskyists, Socialists and Marxist Republicans. I suppose the big question is why was it that the Communists, Trotskyists, Socialists and Marxist Republicans all failed in their attempts to take over not only the Irish Labour Party but also the Irish trade union movement, in spite of all this protest and energy. Hi Rian, I think the answer to your question is in the video clip, albeit obliquely. Many people marching thought that tax reform meant tax cuts. In other words, it is not obvious that so many people wanted tax reform - a lot of the people who marched just wanted tax cuts and were happy with tax cuts, and this was seized upon by the trade union leadership who signed up to the National Understanding agreements on the basis of tax cuts and modest pay increases. With the trade union leadership against the protests, a change in that leadership was needed. Now, in the 1980s there was no shortage of groups trying to take over the trade union leadership, including Communists, Trotskyists, Socialists and Marxist Republicans. I suppose the big question is why was it that the Communists, Trotskyists, Socialists and Marxist Republicans all failed in their attempts to take over not only the Irish Labour Party but also the Irish trade union movement, in spite of all this protest and energy.

]]> By: Rian Orr http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72723 Rian Orr Mon, 05 Apr 2010 10:24:39 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72723 Good interview but I feel you did not ask the big question. Why was the obvious support for tax reform not translated into any conrete gains. today it would be fantastic to get that level of involvment from the public on any issue, but if you do not analyse what the best way to turn this support into advances for those who march then we are in danger of remaking the same mistakes. Good interview but I feel you did not ask the big question. Why was the obvious support for tax reform not translated into any conrete gains. today it would be fantastic to get that level of involvment from the public on any issue, but if you do not analyse what the best way to turn this support into advances for those who march then we are in danger of remaking the same mistakes.

]]> By: Digest – April 4 2010 – The Story http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72715 Digest – April 4 2010 – The Story Sun, 04 Apr 2010 21:00:32 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72715 [...] McCabe has an interview with Sam Nolan who led marches for taxation reform in the 70s. Interesting as we’re seemingly about to enter [...] […] McCabe has an interview with Sam Nolan who led marches for taxation reform in the 70s. Interesting as we’re seemingly about to enter […]

]]> By: Conor McCabe http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72713 Conor McCabe Sun, 04 Apr 2010 17:56:05 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72713 Well that was the useless election alright, as FF already had the support of FG. It came out in the tribunals that Charlie was forced to call the election so as to provide fund-raising opportunities for the likes of Flynn and co. With regard principles, isn't that part of the myth of the PDs? That they had principles? Along with the myth of bringing tax cuts to the Irish people - something that had already been agreed to in principle by ICTU, the employers and FF back in the 1970s. There's the National Understanding agreement of 1979, where ICTU sells a modest wage increase coupled with a cut in PAYE as the way forward. The idea of tax reform, though, instead of simple tax cuts, which would have affected the fundamentals of how Ireland was run, and in whose interest, well, that was left alone. For the PDs to claim, as they always do, and as the Irish Times and Steve Collins always does on their behalf, that they brought the principle of tax cuts to Ireland, they need to show us their time machine and their place at the table during the National Understanding and Partnership talks which took place before, during, and after their formation. I've got a feeling, though, that the Right in Ireland will "rediscover" the role played by the unions in the tax cut shenanigans, as the gloss falls off the 1990s miracle and there's no legacy to claim any more. Well that was the useless election alright, as FF already had the support of FG. It came out in the tribunals that Charlie was forced to call the election so as to provide fund-raising opportunities for the likes of Flynn and co.

With regard principles, isn’t that part of the myth of the PDs? That they had principles? Along with the myth of bringing tax cuts to the Irish people - something that had already been agreed to in principle by ICTU, the employers and FF back in the 1970s. There’s the National Understanding agreement of 1979, where ICTU sells a modest wage increase coupled with a cut in PAYE as the way forward. The idea of tax reform, though, instead of simple tax cuts, which would have affected the fundamentals of how Ireland was run, and in whose interest, well, that was left alone. For the PDs to claim, as they always do, and as the Irish Times and Steve Collins always does on their behalf, that they brought the principle of tax cuts to Ireland, they need to show us their time machine and their place at the table during the National Understanding and Partnership talks which took place before, during, and after their formation.

I’ve got a feeling, though, that the Right in Ireland will “rediscover” the role played by the unions in the tax cut shenanigans, as the gloss falls off the 1990s miracle and there’s no legacy to claim any more.

]]> By: Jim Monaghan http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72712 Jim Monaghan Sun, 04 Apr 2010 17:26:28 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72712 "and remember, the PDs entered the 1989 election with a voting pact with FG. It quickly dumped that, though, once the whiff of power caught its nose." I think it was more a question of they being told by the powers that be that for the sake of "stability" they should hold their noses and go in with Charlie. Mind you to expect teh PDs to have more principle than Labour has would be impossible. “and remember, the PDs entered the 1989 election with a voting pact with FG. It quickly dumped that, though, once the whiff of power caught its nose.”
I think it was more a question of they being told by the powers that be that for the sake of “stability” they should hold their noses and go in with Charlie. Mind you to expect teh PDs to have more principle than Labour has would be impossible.

]]> By: Conor McCabe http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72710 Conor McCabe Sun, 04 Apr 2010 12:48:15 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72710 Maybe not unpopular - I think Steve Collins and the Irish Times would agree with you - but it's almost certainly wrong. They won 14 seats in 1987, then went to six in 1989. They then won ten in 1992, then four in 1997, ten in 2002, and two in 2007. After 1989, the PDs catered for the more right-wing Fine Gaelers out there, who thought Fitzgerald was a commie, than for disgruntled trade unionists angry at carrying the can for the economy. and remember, the PDs entered the 1989 election with a voting pact with FG. It quickly dumped that, though, once the whiff of power caught its nose. Its share of the vote never went above 5.5% after '87, hovering around 4% for the rest of its existence. It was hardly the PAYE masses speaking out. As it is, the idea of PAYE tax cuts in lieu of wage increases was already part of ICTU's mantra back in 1979. If anything, the PAYE marches gave greater impetuous to Partnership and to the type of policies implemented by Partnership. The FFers in ICTU saw this issue as a way of FF holding onto its working class vote, and it's no coincidence that Partnership emerges as soon as FF regain power in 1987. The real legacy of the tax marches was the Partnership deals, and the type of compromises inherent in those deals. Even though the marches were about tax reform, tax cuts were the outcome, a policy put in place by the trade union movement, the employers, and FF. Maybe not unpopular - I think Steve Collins and the Irish Times would agree with you - but it’s almost certainly wrong. They won 14 seats in 1987, then went to six in 1989. They then won ten in 1992, then four in 1997, ten in 2002, and two in 2007. After 1989, the PDs catered for the more right-wing Fine Gaelers out there, who thought Fitzgerald was a commie, than for disgruntled trade unionists angry at carrying the can for the economy. and remember, the PDs entered the 1989 election with a voting pact with FG. It quickly dumped that, though, once the whiff of power caught its nose. Its share of the vote never went above 5.5% after ‘87, hovering around 4% for the rest of its existence. It was hardly the PAYE masses speaking out.

As it is, the idea of PAYE tax cuts in lieu of wage increases was already part of ICTU’s mantra back in 1979. If anything, the PAYE marches gave greater impetuous to Partnership and to the type of policies implemented by Partnership.

The FFers in ICTU saw this issue as a way of FF holding onto its working class vote, and it’s no coincidence that Partnership emerges as soon as FF regain power in 1987.

The real legacy of the tax marches was the Partnership deals, and the type of compromises inherent in those deals.

Even though the marches were about tax reform, tax cuts were the outcome, a policy put in place by the trade union movement, the employers, and FF.

]]> By: Jim Monaghan http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72707 Jim Monaghan Sun, 04 Apr 2010 12:09:21 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72707 Unpopular to say it but maybe the real winners of the tax marchs were the Progressive Democrats. We could use higher taxes on the richer paid especially now. There was a belie that we could have German social services with Boston type low taxes. Does nayone remember the proposition in California for low taxes which led to Reagan. On the few real marchs now, blame the ICTU and the officialdom of the trdae unions. We have less rights than the members of the VHI. Unpopular to say it but maybe the real winners of the tax marchs were the Progressive Democrats. We could use higher taxes on the richer paid especially now.
There was a belie that we could have German social services with Boston type low taxes.
Does nayone remember the proposition in California for low taxes which led to Reagan.
On the few real marchs now, blame the ICTU and the officialdom of the trdae unions. We have less rights than the members of the VHI.

]]> By: Helena Sheehan http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72705 Helena Sheehan Sun, 04 Apr 2010 09:07:40 +0000 http://dublinopinion.com/2010/04/04/sam-nolan-and-the-1979-tax-marches/#comment-72705 Conrgatulations to Conor McCabe and Mick O'Reilly on this project. Thinking back on the tax marches (and I was among the masses on the streets), I wonder why we are not getting such numbers out on the streets now when what is being inflicted on us in the way of taxes, levies, cuts in pay and services is so much more severe. Conrgatulations to Conor McCabe and Mick O’Reilly on this project.

Thinking back on the tax marches (and I was among the masses on the streets), I wonder why we are not getting such numbers out on the streets now when what is being inflicted on us in the way of taxes, levies, cuts in pay and services is so much more severe.

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