“You do not become Greek, you are born Greek, we will drink your blood, listen to this oh Albanian pig”
Mar 27th, 2010 by Conor McCabe
This one seems to have slipped under the radar.
This is footage of Greek Special Forces parading in Athens on 25 March, Greek Independence Day. The soldiers are chanting racist slogans against Albanians, Macedonians, and Turks. They can be heard shouting “Tell the Skopians, tell the Albanians, that our clothes we will sew with their skin.”
The parade passed in front of the Presidency.
At the end of the video a priest is heard calling people to “Resist” and shouting “They are taking over our country.”
The awful brew of nationalism gone mad. Do you know that the moslem minority in Thrace are forced to ok their religious leaders with the Greek state. Other religions operate with with restrictions eg the Catholic Church.Unfortunately parts of the Greek left go along with this. Oh the nonsense of referring to Macedonia as the as the former republic of Jogoslavia whatever as if there was a claim to Greek Macedonia.It is a worry that a Greek regime migh try and draw the rest of the EU into an adventure.
Yeah, Greek attitudes to race and religion, even on the left, are very ‘different’ to put it mildly. I was once invited to share in the outrage expressed by some Greek friends at plans to build a mosque near the airport which would be amazingly provocative because of the impression it would give foreign visitors…..when I failed to see what was wrong with this, there was much headshaking: and all of these people would have been, at least, socialists. It’s also the only place I know of where you have to put your religion on your identity card, apart from Israel…
Greece feels betrayed from WW2, and the issues between Turkey and Greece have been ongoing since the Ottoman Empire. There is hostility toward Turkey most definitely but this is due the long occupation and the continuing issue over Cyprus. Not to mention the propaganda used by Turkey and the mass kidnapping inflicted on Greek-Cypriots during the 1974 invasion of Cyprus. This link between Greece and Cyprus is why hostility has continued between the two sides.
With a socialist government you will always encounter issues like the video shows and the poor handling of the country is shown with the handling of the economy within Greece. I have a circle of Greek friends also and a Cypriot girlfriend, and much of what goes on is not documented in the West. The media plays a big part in suppressing footage of states such as Turkey’s behaviour. Not that i condone racist slogans nor signalling out minorities but as i mentioned there is more reasons for this hostility.
We’re talking about an official parade where special armed forces are chanting how they are going to kill Albanians, drink their blood, and make coats out of their skin. Albania has a large Muslim population, of course, mainly non-practising. There are about half a million Albanians in Greece, many of whom are there illegally.
Albanians in Greece are often seen as criminal and are subject to both physical and non-physical attacks. The collapse of communism in Albania in 1992 brought a wave of immigrants to Greece, including a criminal element, and there have been strong tensions between Greeks and Albanians as a result, but this is pure racism here. The Irish who went to Britain in the 1950s and on to the 1990s, for example, weren’t all exactly mammy’s boys either, but that doesn’t excuse racist attacks by official sections of the state. This wasn’t a Golden Dawn-type rally, it was a state-sanctioned parade, involving the state’s armed forces.
As the Greek Daily newspaper, Eleftherotypia, said about the incident: “why all the hate? Are we living in 2010 with a socialist government? or in the past of military dictatorship?” It unequivocally condemned the incident, expressing shock at the footage, and rightly so.
Eleftherotypia also said that one of the chants was “We will slaughter them until they worship the cross.”
The officer in charge of the group during the parade has been suspended, and the Greek Civil Defence Minister has condemned the incident.
Apparently the men were members of the Navy’s underwater demolition team, but there’s been such a scramble to pass the buck on this one in government circles that it’s still a bit unclear.
Granted at the moment these is some degree of xenophobia going on in the Greece. However, what did everyone expect to happen when some people started referencing FYROM as “Macedonians” after decades of claiming the exact opposite?
e.g.
“This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”
http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d
The incident is still appalling but trying to typecast Greeks as some cartoon minority villain because of it is outrageous. I can only imagine what the self-righteous hypocrites making such wide sweeping prejudiced remarks about Greeks.. would have said if Greeks had been the one’s to participate in the gulag of Abu Gharaib (along with the rest of Bush’s coalition of the willing that killed a hundreds of thousands of “brown” Muslims…. for imaginary WMDs )
Based on some of the comments on this blog (not all), I interpret this as just one more attempt to apply pressure on Greeks on minorities…. simply to try and squeeze in the inappropriate naming of FYROM as “Macedonians” (at the expense of the human rights of 2.5 million Greek Macedonians-as well as every Greek that considers Macedonia part of its nation’s history)
“I interpret this as just one more attempt to apply pressure on Greeks on minorities”
Well, that’s your right, but I don’t know where you are getting that from.
We’re looking at extreme right-wing elements within the Greek armed forces here. quite disturbing in itself. But, how does that translate into a condemnation of the entire Greek people? I’ve pointed out that the actions of the armed forces in the video have been rightly condemned in Greece as well.
“trying to typecast Greeks as some cartoon minority villain because of it is outrageous..”
Huh?
Likethestate, I applaud your ability to jerk your knee and type at the same time.
“, I applaud your ability to jerk your knee and type at the same time.”
Funny you should say that Conor. I wasn’t actually offended by anything you said. I thought your original comments and criticisms were rather reasonable.
While I agree with you the incident was inexcusable. I don’t think there is a problem with rightwing extremism in Greece though (no more so than say Germany). I think there are many negative stereotypes of Greeks as “peasants” in other nations (which FYROM and its supporters try to encourage as leverage in the name dispute)
The reality is Greece is extremely political active and this results in all sorts of partical activism (e.g. we still have communists and anarchists, theocratic parties,green parties… the works)
Any how.. I was pointing fingers at Mr. Monaghan that refers to the democratically elected Greek government as a “regime” (and of course used it as an opportunity to inject the FYROM issue-while ignoring there are 2.5 million Macedonians in Greece that in no way consider themselves related to FYROM as well as all Greeks that consider Macedonia part of their nations history… not that of the former self-identifying Bulgarians of the Former Yugoslav Bananova of Vardar)
Mr. Monaghan also managed to criticize Greeks for some perceived poor treatment of Muslims. To be fair, I think Greece needs to lax christian orthodox control in affairs of state… but it has little to do with “racism”. The Christians have a habit of harassing even Greeks that pray to the old Gods (and even Greeks like me that believe in no God’s whatsover)
I wonder if Mr. Monaghan knows that the income of a Muslim in Greece is several times greater than one’s living in exactly next door Turkey (clearly a holocaust going on) No doubt he is also aware there are Muslim members of Greek parliment as well? (not to mention a political party by a small minority of FYROM nationalists living in Greece that attempt to convince millions of Macedonians that ancient Macedonians were Slavic.)
And before Mr. Monaghan criticizes Greeks too loudly from somewhere far far away from the second and third world countries Greece is a short boat ride away from… perhaps he should consider Greeks are surrounded by a certain nations seemingly out to completely to disassemble our of very national existence (and have a vast population superiority to do it)
He is no doubt acquainted with how Greeks are treated in Turkey and Northern Cyprus right? (not to mention everyone else). When Turkey treats minorities half as good as Greeks do them (under the extreme duress in a very challenging region of the world) people like Mr. Monaghan get to patronizingly wholesale mud sling Greeks.
Until then I recommend he focus on his own backyard than bother someone else. Greece, pop. 10M with an aging population hasn’t instigated and attack against against another nation’s sovereign soil in nearly a century. The same can not be said for virtually all our neighbors who’ve periodically killed Greeks on multiple occasions during the same period… on their own soil.
“The reality is Greece is extremely political active and this results in all sorts of polical activism”
Sorry about that tautology. I have no idea what I was thinking.
Thanks for the comments likethestate. This blog is based in Ireland, which is indeed a long way from Greece, and certainly I can say that I’ve never heard of the Greek people referred to as peasants. In this part of Europe that’s usually reserved for us
Hi Conor,
Do not mind Likethestate, he is confused
You should ask him why Greece forbid the use of the name Macedonia in their Northern Region before 1988.
Also Mr. Likethestate, can you please answer why Greece changed their politics and started renaming their airports schools and streets with the name Macedonia after 1990, when they entered with Macedonia into talks under the supervision of the UN?
If that is not provocation I am not sure what is….
Conor, the point is that Nationalism in Greece has been promoted and encouraged since the civil war in Greece.
Pleas ask any of the Turks, Albanians and Macedonians, what happened after the civil war was over. Ask them about the atrocities that the Greeks did to these people, about the thousands of kids and women they forcefully moved out of todays Northern Greece so they can create a pure Greek state….
Thanks for your blog post, I am really glad that someone else is paying attention to what is going on in this Economically and Politically fragile country.
Cheers
I agree with Mr Likestate as he mentions the attacks on Greeks in Cyprus and the continuing disputes among Turkey and Greece. Although you do not need to be in Greece to acknowledge any Greek politics, as we have media coverage worldwide not to mention the vast amount of Greeks communities in the UK and Ireland.
However the Macedonia issue is one important aspect he brought up, it is part of Greek history and the dispute over the name is warranted especially when concerning the claim to historical artifacts in the region which a dispute is continuing over to the present day.
Everyone is in agreement the chants were despicable but as has been noted the media condemned the slogans. No matter where you are from these sort of slogans are cast about everywhere, and when we live in an age of anti-Muslim propaganda is this really any worse than the continuous American/British propaganda pumped onto our tv stations?
There is no doubt as mentioned above that the treatment of the Greeks and especially Greek Cypriots by Turkey is appalling and if we look at the bigger picture the devastation Cyprus and Greece has received from the combination of Turkey and England then the Greeks do look like the victims.
“No matter where you are from these sort of slogans are cast about everywhere, and when we live in an age of anti-Muslim propaganda is this really any worse than the continuous American/British propaganda pumped onto our tv stations?”
Stephen, I think there is a difference between anti-Muslim and anti-Albanian slogans chanted by thugs on a street, and anti-Muslin and anti-Albanian slogans chanted by the armed forces of a state at an official state ceremony.
If this had been a video of ex-Chrysi Avyi / Golden Dawn members then I would agree with your comments about this being everywhere in Europe, but to take the example of Germany mentioned earlier, videos of German neo-nazis are quite common and well-known, but if there was a video of members of the German Special Forces shouting racist chants at an official government ceremony in Berlin, one attended by government ministers, then I think people would take notice.
There is a difference when racism is seen to be condoned by a state, and while at the start the Greek government tried to gloss over this incident, they have since come out and condemned it, which is only right.
To stephen pol haydon:
To bluntly state that you have more right to the name Macedonia, than Republic of Macedonia, because of something that happened 3000 years ago is absolutely ridiculous.
If you are looking at the closer history The Northern region of Greece, or the southern geographical region of Macedonia became a part of the Greek state after the Second Balkan war.
Please find me a document where it shows that the whole Macedonia region was always part of Greece, and dont even try going into historical documents dated from Alexander the Great…
If you think that you are a pure descended of the Ancient Greeks, after thousands of years of Roman, Byzantium, Turkish empire going through and living in this region you just make yourself look silly….
No one but your country is making issues with Republic of Macedonia and their name. There is no confusions since your country is called Greece and your northern region has been called Makedonia since the early 90s, please note that from the civil war till the late 80s the use of the name Macedonia was forbidden in Greece.
Republic of Macedonia has every right to the name since the people have been called Macedonians for hundreds and thousands of years.
Unless you also are stating that when some of the slavic tribes populated this regions, including your northern region, they somehow killed and cleansed all the native Macedonians and then they populated the region with only Slavs with the whole purpose of stilling your history.
Do you just know how funny this sounds?
Cheers
That is true and while there is a great deal of xenophobia within Greece, I think the history does play a bigger part. I in no way condone the racist slogans especially from an armed forces representing the state. I think also with the current state of the Greek economy this issue is even more used out of anger.
I completley agree with the German special forces remark and there is no excuse. However Greeks look at the crime rates surrounding the Albanian immigrants and see this as a threat to their society and the Turkey issue is one which is played on both sides. However I tend to sympathize with the Greeks especially Greek Cypriots on that issue (although not through racist attacks). I think this is largely down to the Geek mentality
There is no way to even begin to condone the comments within the video, all I have offered is a basis for the racism. I think it is much more evident from the Turkish side but as you noted this is unacceptable within a powerful institutions like the army.
And of course the use of racism during an economic crisis is not unique to Greece: one only has to look at Fine Gael here in Ireland to see how the Right loves an economic crisis to stir the racist pot.
http://dublinopinion.com/2008/09/08/fine-gael-in-between-the-lines/
Well Alex I did not claim to be Greek, I am actually Irish! However the claim to the history of Macedonia is the biggest issue as I mentioned as by proclaiming the FYRM as simply Macedonia a claim to all historical artifacts and the history is an issue for Greeks. As I mentioned, I am well aware that this predates the Balkan war and it was part of the Ottoman Empire, Greece opposes the use of the name as it is the name of their northern region. Alos this government’s constitution makes reference to changing the current borders to create a greater Macedonia that will include the northern province of Greece.
Also the FYRM mostly consist of Slavs, whereas the Greeks have a cultural, linguistic and geographical ties to the ancient Greeks and Macedon. The Macedonian argument was promoted by the 3rd Commintern (USSR) to create an independent greater Macedonia for social experimentation. Bulgarians have said that Alexander the Great was a Bulgarian while occupying Macedonia on behalf of the Germans in WWII. Quite clearly this is important to the Greeks.
Also I’ll think you will find the USSR invited Greece to invade FYRM but the Greeks declined.
Well Stephen, Republic of Macedonia is located on in the Northern Region of what use to be the whole Geographical Region Macedonia, so while 100% of Republic of Macedonia is located on this region and the northern Greece or the Southern Geographical Region of Macedonia is only about 30% of Greece, you are claiming that they have more right to the Macedonian history than Republic of Macedonia?
You know that the Slavs populated the whole Geographical Region of macedonia thousand of years ago, right? This is including the todays northern Greece, and this was before the today’s Greek Country was created or ever existed.
Now you are stating that after thousands of years the current Republic of Macedonia is only made of Slavs and that Northern Greece is made out of pure descendants of ancient Greeks?
One questions what happened to the mixed Slav/Macedonian population that occupied this region for thousands of years before the current Greek state was created?
Were they all killed, eliminated….. The biggest argument that Greece uses is that Alexander the Great spoke Greek and his mother was Greek. That is true but so do I speak English and you Speak English and neither of as are native English.
I dont even want to go back 3000 years ago, but In the history Greece was always divided in smaller city states, and they were distinguishing themselves from the highlanders “Macedonians” by calling them savages who did not speak Greek, as quoted by Plato and many other ancient Greek writers and philosophers. One thing that Philip the King of Macedonia, did after conquering the Greek City States was to marry a Greek woman and have his son educated by the best Greek philosophers, so that he is treated as a proper aristocrat from a royal blood line. It has been also documented than on many ocassions Alexander turned back to his Macedonian soldier and spoke to them on Macedonian, not Greek but Macedonian.
Now lets get back to nowadays. Although many things have changed in the last 3000 years, and the current Macedonian language, although has kept few words from the old Macedonian language, is mostly slavic and is different from what the ancient settlers spoke. This does still not make the people of Republic of Macedonia anything but Macedonians.
One more thing, I thing that you as Irish would understand.
Gaelic as Irish native language is sadly but truly is being slowly lost and forgotten, while the English language prevails.
Now if in 600 years all Irish speak only English would that make you and Englishman? Would that give the right of the English people force you to rename your country and change your identity because your people do not speak the Gaelic language anymore?
Language has nothing to do with who people are and where they come from….. All Macedonians want to is the freedom to call them selves what their ancestors were called Macedonians…
I just don’t get where all the confusion lies?
Do you know that Greece has no known writers, poets nor famous Greek people that were born in Northern Greece Prior to the balkan wars? I can name you several Macedonians, that were born in Thessaloniki and other little cities through out that region, and then were killed or forcefully moved after the civil war in Greece.
The other thing you said that Republic of Macedonia might claim that region for themselves, it’s just a silly notion…. Are you serious that a country with 2.2 million people and no military power can concur Greece?
I’m greek, I stumbled upon this page while searching for international reactions to this dreadful behaviour of our armed forces (not to mention the fact that we are still holind military parades…)
I’m glad (and surprised) to see how well informed are other nations of our history, problems and weaknesses.
And one note, regarding this strange remark: “note that from the civil war till the late 80s the use of the name Macedonia was forbidden in Greece”
I have to say, I was born in the late 70s, attended primary school in the 80s, and I clearly remember a big map of my country hanging on one of the walls in the class room, with the northern part having a big label “MAKEDONIA”. I also remember my family, friends, the media, and of course myself calling it by the exact same name. So, where is this coming from?
Well I too can spout off some historical facts if you wish, the Slavs migrated in the 6th century, therefore the Greeks insist the modern day Macedonian s are descendants of these Slavs and therefore cannot claim Ancient-Macedonia. The Greeks claim The Macedonians should not be recognized as Macedonians because the Macedonians have been of Greek nationality since 2000 BC.
The Greeks feels that the adoption of an irredentist name and flag by FYROM are hostile and provocative acts designed to establish future claims on Greek Macedonia. In 1991 the southern part of the broken up Yugoslavia named itself “Republic of Macedonia”. They designed a new flag with the Sun of Vergina at its center and printed new currency with the White Tower of Thessaloniki, symbols clearly from the northern province of Greece. Because of this and articles in their constitution which implied that the their country had territorial rights to all of the ancient Macedonian area, Greece imposed a trade embargo. Greece reluctantly lifted the trade embargo when The FYROM redesigned and accepted a new flag.
After 1944 a deliberate and systematic campaign was initiated for Yugoslavia’s southern republic to take over the history of ancient Macedonia. Through their control of the media the government of “People’s Republic of Macedonia” introduced this language and claimed that it is the language that was spoken by the ancient Macedonians. However, this language is identical to Bulgarian and numerous excavations in all of the ancient Macedonia area unearthed are clearly with Greek writings, in ancient Greek culture, Macedonians celebrated the same festivals with the rest of the Greeks. They took part in the Olympic games and the regions that comprised the area of Macedonia all had Greek names.
Now maybe we can put this to rest as the original post had nothing to do with this, everyone agrees the racial slogans were appalling, you have picked up on four lines I wrote and we should agree to disagree on the issue perhaps?
All can claim that Macedonia is Greek, that there are historical artifacts as evidence, but there still living evidence alone can not tell the truth about the persecution of their birthplaces. These people were forbidden to go to visit their hometowns, have throughout the world. Only favorite European member Greece and allows you to do what he wants.
I’ve been following things in Greece closely via the blog ‘After The Greek Riots’ over on Occupied London, the situation seems crazy at the minute.
Between the bomb on the neo-nazi offices, the killing of an anarchist recently and a massive increase in state action against immigrants, the whole thing is just setting the stage for a massive repeat of December ‘08.
This is worth a look, if anyone didn’t see it when it first aired, on the aftermath of the December ‘08 riots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEc62HWWiHs
We are the real Macedonians(In state which they call Firom),the Greeks are have not anything Macedonian.They took our part of Macedonia.In Greece there is people Macedonians,but Greeks deny.Europe , please help these people!
[…] anyone confirm that this is translated correctly? Conor McCabe says… This is footage of Greek Special Forces parading in Athens on 25 March, Greek Independence […]
I wonder that none of you guys is well-informed about the history of Albania. What a pitty for my country? About being muslim or not i remember you that albanians just don’t give a shit about religion. Nobody in Europe mention that albanians were the only ones who resisted the most against the turks back in 15 century. Still today we are paying the highest price for having tried to protect the christianity and look how gay Europe thank us. By the way about these slogans of the gayreek army, this is not new so i am not surprised but i am surprised with my fucking governement who does nothing against this. When the comunism was still strong gayreeks didn’t try to do a thing becausethe comunists were ready to show them “the teeth” but today yes they can do things such as asking money to Germany or racist slogans or other. I don’t understand how a country that didn’t have what to eat until late 70-is became suddenly “strong”. For them who don’t know, i tell that in 1978 Albania did a gift to Gayreece that was 4 ships each 3000 tons with flower because they didn’t have to eat. So because of EU they are what they are. My friends you who will read this, you should know one thing; albanians are people wit values, and the storys that albanians are thiefs or other bullshit like this i tell that albanians don’t more than others ok. By the way albanians are not gays like grayreeks.
Seems a bit silly to point this out on a post criticising racist chants, but, erhm, no racist / xenophobic comments please.
I am from the Republic of Macedonia and will not comment on the history and who is right or wrong BUT
if the special forces of one country call that kind of racist chants on a military parade and to be even more interesting on their independence from turkey this tells you that is not an act of one person but their whole government is racist. you don’t come up with these chants all of sudden, you train them, you sing them on a daily basis and this is being approved by someone. In other words, it looks really bad on greece.
@Aleks
Yes lovely FYROM “fact” spreading. To your credit its been working for you. Personally I prefer honesty with my facts.
“You should ask him why Greece forbid the use of the name Macedonia in their Northern Region before 1988.”
Rubbish. The term “Macedonia” was used both unofficially during the Balkan wars by Greeks and put into immediate use in 1911 after acquiring Macedonia region from Turkish Rumelia during the Balkan wars (and would note “Rumelia” is Turkish for Land of the Romans… a hint as to who owned it before the Turks took over Constantinople
“Pleas ask any of the Turks, Albanians and Macedonians, what happened after the civil war was over. Ask them about the atrocities that the Greeks did to these people, about the thousands of kids and women they forcefully moved out of todays Northern Greece so they can create a pure Greek state”
Quite contrary to your interesting assertions Alak…the UN general assembly passed at least four resolutions condemning our communist neighbours for attrocities committing against us. (Including you former Yugoslavians)
(UN General Assembly Resolution 193, 1948)
http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/3/ares3.htm
(UN General Assembly Resolution 288, 1949)
http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/4/ares4.htm
(UN General Assembly Resolution 382 (V Section C), 1950)
http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/5/ares5.htm
(UN General Assembly Resolution 618, 1952)
http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/7/ares7.htm
Furthermore the US fullly supported Greece both morally and militarily
“Despite the continuing ravages of the foreign-inspired guerrilla warfare, the Greek people remain determined to rebuild their own land in their own way, in freedom and in peace. This is the significance of the “Work and Victory” rally. The spirit of the people and the recent successes of the Greek armed forces confirm my confidence that the new totalitarian pressure will be contained, whatever difficulties may lie ahead. The American people are proud of their part in helping to preserve Greek independence and the structure of world peace through the Greek aid program.”
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=13414&st=greece&st1=
“Greece faces great difficulty in absorbing the refugees of Greek origin who are being driven out of the Balkan satellites by the communists. Thus, the brutal policies of Soviet tyranny are aggravating overcrowded conditions which are already a danger to the stability of these free nations. ”
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=14435&st=greece&st1=
You seem a “little” loose with the facts there. While Greeks were fighting for our territorial integrity while trying to combat Stalinist tyranny from spreading. I seem to recall your communist grandfathers were doing the opposite.
(disclaimer - I hate getting into this decades old mudslinging matched but since he brought it up…. he received)
INcidentally Alaks…
This is what the US used to say about communist “ethnic Macedonians” during the greek civil war and later cold war. (along with all the guns the US supplied Greece… presumably they knew they weren’t going to be used to shoot chickens)
“This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”
(U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram - 868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d
Now the interesting question arises from that.
If FYROM claim to be “ancient Macedonians” that date back to antiquity… how is the US didn’t know about that in 1944? It seems to me then logic is suggesting one of the following conclusions.
a. The US colluded with Greeks in an attempted genocide of “ethnic Macedonians”.
b. “Ethnic Macedonians” are essentially a communist creation. (out of mostly former ethnic Bulgarians actually)
I think B myself but if you doubt my hypothesis I welcome you to point me out the line that shows “ethnic Macedonian” from the below 19th and early 20th century census data from the region.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Statistical_data
Seemingly no census taker (from many countries, using many methodologies) could detect the existence of a million or so “ethnic Macedonians” . (although they could find plenty of Greeks, Serbs, Albanians, Roma and of course Bulgarians.
Or maybe option C. The dirty fascist greeks went back in a time machine and fixed all the census data? (from German, France, Serbia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Russia, Italy, UK, US, encyclopedia britannica, and the League of Nations to name a few)
Lord,
I have a small request to make.
In the next life can FYROM be north of Italy?
Can FYROM suddenly claim out of the blue to Italians to be the real “ethnic Romans” after 2200 years.
Can they claim to Italians that their Bulgarian dialect is actually “ethnic Latin”?
Can they claim to Italians that Rome Italy is “occupied”?
Can they claim to Julius Caesar as their national hero?
Can they claim to the media, and any blog or ngo that will listen how the fascist Italians are oppressing “ethnic Romans” in Rome?
And can I be the one to lecture others with claims that the right to self-identification applies as an absolute… even when common sense suggests conscious intentional fraud is occurring?
Thanks for your consideration
————-
“To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[…] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[…] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[…]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[…]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[…]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[…]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[…] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ” (Ljubco Georgievski, ex-Prime Minister of FYROM, A1 TV June 2009) http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI
You forgot to mention homophobic Conor - cos we seem to be getting the whole gamut in this Balkanisation of DO
Pardon the frivolity of my comment - but I thought Alexander the Great was a Dub :
And here he is without an effects pedal on his Dub accent :
As to Albania - did the recent comments of that (allegedly heterosexual) clown in Rome (Berlusconi) get as far as Ireland. He said something like the only Albanians he’d let into Italy from now on would be the good-looking female ones… how low can you go ??
@Alban
As a Greek I apologize to the vast majority of Albanian people out there for this retarded incident. Most Albanians I’ve ever dealt with are nice people. We actually hired some a few months ago to create a brick skeleton around a garden . They worked very hard and did a great job.
However, based on your own childish anti-Greek comments above I have to say your current negative attitude appears to be no better than those dishonorable Greek soldiers. Lets not be “victims” to one another ok? It’s a lose-lose game once that starts.
About my only beef is I hate when (any) people enter Greece illegally or break local laws but everything else is kosher. I see no major issues between Albanians and Greeks. It’s actually probably one of the more friendlier Balkan relationships the last few years despite the occasional drama.
The discussion goes to a wrong direction. Racist comments do not help anyone. I also came to this discussion by chance following reactions on the Greek army slogans.
What’s the source of it? Well, there it is…
The most of Greek people do believe they are solely ancestors of the helenic era. It sounds OK, but the summaries of genetic analyses in the recent period, as expected with any other nation, put this theory in a trash bin. Greeks are folks (nation) as any others, it is a political and not a genetic category. For non-believers, please browse the web.
Greece is the only European nation that promotes its religion and its written in their ID cards and passports. This affects the Turkish minority which are recognised as Greeks with muslim religion.
Greece is the only European nation which officially has no minorities. This is a position of the Greek government. This affects the Turks, Macedonians and Albanians. They sorted out that question with the Bulgarians as they exchanged the population in the 1920s.
Ethnic Macedonian territory by the Bucharest treaty in 1913 has been divided between Serbia, Hellas (Greece) and Bulgaria. Serbian part becomes todays R. Macedonia. The division was mastered by France and Britain to prevent “slavic” states (read Russia) having access to the Mediterranean sea. See the northern borders of today’s Greece and you will get the point.
The Greek PM Venizelos wanted to trade todays Northern Greece with Ciprus as except in Salonika (Thessaloniki, Solun) the Greeks were present in only small numbers (source - Turkish property lists of tax payers from 100 years ago, only available within the recent years).
Since 1920 speaking of any language different than Greek would have very serious consequences (although with the Bucharest treaty Greece was obliges to preserve cultural identity of the population in the seized teritories). That extends till today although people would not be imprisoned or “vanished”, but rather loose their job in public institutions or their houses stoned, as an extreme example.
During the civil war in 1950’s, many Greeks left the country to prevent being prosecuted or even physically eliminated. Later on, only Greeks of “Greek origin” were allowed to repatriate. The others (mainly Macedonians) lost that right and today are dispersed all over the world. Their properties have been confiscated and given to Greeks from Trakia after the exchange of population with Turkey (partially) and Bulgaria (mainly). The “newcomers” represent today’s 2.5 mio Greek macedonians. The expelled people today cannot enter Greece even they are passport holders of Canada, US or Australia.
In today’s Greece you may publicly speak Macedonian, but literaly still on your own risk.
That is the main reason why Greece did not sign the European Convention for Minority Rights is explained below (http://macedonianhr.org.au/04news/882009/20090923ecrireportresponse.html) or better (http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/ecri/Country-by-country/Greece/Greece_CBC_en.asp - 15 Sep 2009, pp. 33) and you will get the picture.
Only after the death of Tito (the former Yugoslavian president) and when become apparent that republics would gain independence, Greece introduced the term Macedonia (strictly forbidden before) and domestically spent 190 mio euros, as stated recently by the Greek goverment, to promote the new name of their Northern territory to “Province of Macedonia”, including renaming the Salonika airport to Makedonia, among others. Obviously the name dispute with today’s R. Macedonia was planned some 30 years ago.
And today Greece will by all means prevent R. Macedonia joining the EU (and NATo, as one step towards it) as the consequences would be tremendous, both socially and economically. Today Macedonians take Bulgarian citizenship and through Greek courts get back their properties. As Macedonians and non-EU members they would get no theoretical chance.
When Papandreu today says that it is not a time to resolve the name dispute as Greece has serious financial difficulties, he actually knows that if Macedonia joins EU now or in the recent years, the number of trials in court will be not less than 30,000 and, if won, the financial burden will be counted in billions of Euros.
Now the above said gives a bit of more clear picture why the army sings songs like they did this or every year since the last 20 or so years.
A little bit more. The Greek government/state discriminates against its minorities. It is the duty of the Greek left to combat this.
The Macedonians do the same or tried with their Albanian minority. I am concerned with the fate/position of the Greek minority in Southern Albania. Don’t let me get going about the Kurds and Armenians in Turkey not to mind the other minorities. That your neighbours are bad/worse is no excuse. Stupidity like the coup in Cyprus that led to the Turkish invasion could trigger a regional war leading to even worse. The idiots who rule Georgia convinced themselves that they would get international support and look what happened.
I am for a Socialist Balkan federation which would recognise the national rights of minorities. What we have instead is ethnic cleansing as brutal methods are used to separate intermingled populations.Salonika was once very ethnically diverse. This is just one example. Oh there are/were population groups scattered across the Balkans who spoke latin derived languages. They are not Romanian, they have few rights, including in Greece.
Back to the first point.Clean up your own backyard. Get rid of all discriminatory legislation and attitudes in Greece.Getting rid of discrimination against the Moslem minority in Thrace would be a real support to the secular left in Turkey. In my own context I believe that discrimination in the formally independent part of Ireland is wrong and it is not in any way valid to use practices in the British ruled part as an excuse.
On Macedonia.Do you expect the Belgium Gov. to object to a certain neighbouring country using the name of a Belgian province.
My dearest Jim,
You hit the essence of today’s Balkan story. Nobody wants to see the rubish in its courtyard but rather spit over its fence to the nearest neighbour. Everyone is happy when the neighbour’s goat got killed by wolfs.
Although reciprocity is a wrong approach, it is simple impossible to explain to your own people that you have to be kind with your neighbours in a situation when the very basic universal human rights right across your fence are put in dust.
But for the sake of correctness, I will briefly try to explain the backclashing between the Albanians and Macedonians.
The main problem is not the racism, but incompatibility in practising your culture and habits. Except few examples, you won’t find marriages between Macedonains and Albanians as the differences are quite high. That is the main reason for chosing ethnic cohabitation rather than leaving in harmony. Religion does not play a major role here.
After the WW2 Albanians have been recognised in R. Macedonia (as part of former Yugoslavia) as minority, constituting some 7 - 10% of the entire population. Although controlled by the Comunist party, Albanians got newspapers on their language, dedicated time on state media to key positions in the Government. There was no key census for employment in public (e.g. state) owned companies or government’s institutions, but the presence of Albanians was noticeable from the very top (MPs) to the bottom. Education (and political corectness) was the only criteria getting the position.
Since the late 1980’s and the initial unrests in Kosovo, the trend of pushing out the native Macedonian population by the Albanians from Macedonia’s Western regions has been publicly hushed. The result today is that a number of villages have no Macedonians at all, although say some 30 to 40 years ago the population was mixed if not dominantly Macedonian.
What happened after the Kosovo crisis and bombing of Serbia is a classic agression from Kosovo towards Macedonia. Macedonian leaders sensed the situation and did not allow the security forces to intervene in more serious manner, but rather keep the situation under control till the political agreement is reached. The only real clashing occured at the end of the unrest when forces from Kosovo entering Macedonia have been confronted and expelled.
From the other side, since 1912 when Albania has been established as a state, only some 5,000 Macedonians leaving in one border region were granted with a status of minority.
The unidentified number of Macedonians leave these days in Albania as the state oposed any census till today. As Albania waives towards EU, the census including religion and nationality data will apparently be held in near future, creating bitter reactions among Albanian “intelectuals”.
I am attaching few recent links which are quite extreme, but will put some light on the issue.
http://www.vmacedonianews.com/2010/02/albania-silent-over-scandal-with.html (and please see the comment at the end);
And if you have time, the others…
http://www.vmacedonianews.com/2010/02/menduh-thaci-left-alone.html
http://www.vmacedonianews.com/2010/02/eu-us-representatives-to-macedonia.html
http://www.vmacedonianews.com/2010/02/terror-in-albania-over-classes-in.html
There are other recent ‘picant’ news, but I could not find a link on English.
So my dear fellows, the picture is not so simple. The main problem is that any leading politician in Macedonia simply cannot ask the Macedonians to opt and 100% clean their courtyard when on the other side you got something else…
“The main problem is that any leading politician in Macedonia simply cannot ask the Macedonians to opt and 100% clean their courtyard when on the other side you got something else…”
Yoiu could say this for similar politicians across the area in every country and further afield. If we are ever to have real peace and toleration we need individuals and parties who call for toleration and respect for minorities rather than play to the galleries of bigotry.The other side is in your own country, clean up here and you make it very difficult for the bigots acrosss the border to continue the old ways.That is why I would call them mere politicians rather than statespersons. I would go further and call them chauvenists.We need to go back to the Serbian Social Democrats who voted against war pre 1914, like the Russian Bolsheviks. We need Rakovskys.
It would be great to see real leftists across the area coming together in conferences where they make joint stands against those who seek power with demagogic appeals which they believe they will never have to act on but which could easily lead to repeat nightmares of the recent wars in Bosnia and Kosovo.
Greek leftists can show an example by opposing discrimnination against minorities in Greece. This would be a powerful example to those in Turkey and elsewhere who are uneasy with their own bourgeoisies and their discriminations.
War is a powerful aphrodisiac for young men esp[ecially. It sounds romantic. A short war, and home to a grateful populace after you deal with the old enemny. A neat diversion from the economic mess caused by the Greek bourgeoisie, and the other ones as well.The current “losers” in the recent wars dream of a repeat where they will win. So the eternal dance of misery will continue. Let us try and make a permanent peace based on toleration and respect.
It took until 1917 for the Ruyssian workers and peasants to turn their baynets? against the enemny at home.
As Johnston once siad “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel”.
http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article1775&var_recherche=Macedonia
A straw in the wind but a hopeful sign of a group of young people prepared to make a stand. Hopefully they are the future and not the lying politicians of all sides who will and have destroyed so much for their own narrow interests.
There are things that must be clear. For example i saw that many people here try to justify things by all means. Then what the albanians should do when Kosovo was given to Serbia by the “europian powers” back in London Treaty 1912 and the northern part of Greece is albanian also given to Greece by the same “treaty” and today same idiots dare to say that “great Albania” is becaming a reality? How can we discuss with people like this who try by all means to find something to mine everything? No men there are things that can’t be justified, for the only and simple reason that albanians are among the oldest people of Europe and we have been always there and i don’t need to have lessons from nobody about this. Greece has always had a policy of agression towards Albania since…………….always and if some “moderated” greeks say that we “should” work together they do so not because they want but because they are forced to do so by the circumstances and because they have lost many from their allies. Greeks should know that to burn an american flag is easy thing to do but the USA don’t forget it and when time comes they will remember it ( i think they are already doing it). Even with our national hero they try to make people believe that he was greek, this is nonsense just incredible. An army which say things that we have all heard, before the army high command, it is hard for me to believe that “it was an accident” or maybe we should say an well-prepared accident. So i am sorry men but all justifications you could have , for me are facts to prove the contrary. And i bet that, this will not be the last time.
Certainly, the event with the Greek soldiers chanting racist slogans is inexcusable. From what i have noticed, there is still a significant amount of Nationalism and xenophobia among Greek people.
However while reading the above conversation i have to admit, Greeks are entirely justifiable to their worries. Most of the comments of the Macedonians here (more accurately i should state Modern Macedonians, as they have nothing to do with the ancient ones anyway) display a tone of “victimization” and provide hints of irredentist dreams by constant allusions of Greek “occupation” in what is known as Greek Macedonia and so on.
Most of the infos related to historical facts provided by Macedonians here are either inaccurate or comprise of half truths.
I noticed this one:
#Republic of Macedonia has every right to the name since the people have been called Macedonians for hundreds and thousands of years.#
Modern Macedonians have nothing to do with the ancient ones. Slavs settled in the region almost 1000 years after the time of Alexander. One way or another, historical sources portray Alexander and his Macedonians as Greek. Therefore i consider your claim as totally misinformed.
I noticed a couple of weeks ago, videos from older protest of modern Macedonians in YouTube. They were all similar to this one, full of Nationalism and irridentist dreams. What proved to be horrid is the fact that this protest was organised by the Macedonian-Canadian diaspora. I counted the term “United Macedonia” at least three times and “occupied part of Macedonia” by Greeks twice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYF69I6_I38
Here is a small note to our modern Macedonian friends here. Sadly most of you seem to have been indoctrinated into an extreme form of Nationalism and dreams of acquiring territories which belong to neighbouring states (Bulgaria and Greece). I wish you could understand that you lose ALL credibility, appear foolish to the outsiders and totally justify Bulgarian and Greek objections.
@Another FYROM nationalist
What is it with you guys and spreading fake facts? Is it conscious lying or is it just your are incapable of denouncing FYROM state propaganda?
You state: “The most of Greek people do believe they are solely ancestors of the helenic era. “:
“Most greeks” believe no such thing. (and only someone seriously mentally challenges would believe they do). Every nation and ethnic group on earth mixes. That said…I hardly thing that’s evidence that the Irish (or Greeks) don’t exist.
You state: “Greece is the only European nation which officially has no minorities.”
More FYROM nationalist hate mongering via “framing”. Greece doesn’t usually TRACK minorities. (which neither does France or Denmark incidentallu) This is not the same as saying there are no minorities. For instance, Jews are even a recognized minority in Greece. FYROM on the other hand are not because they want to be called a flat “Macedonian” in Greece… when they full well know there are 2.5 million Greeks around them that also consider themselves Macedonians. (as well as all the other issues)
You state: “Ethnic Macedonian territory by the Bucharest treaty in 1913 has been divided between Serbia, Hellas (Greece) and Bulgaria. ”
More fake facts. The area was officially called Rumelia under the Turks NOT Macedonia (an unofficial term that described a vague historic region).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumelia
Bulgarians, Greeks, Turks and Serbs fought one another for the pieces of the crumbling Ottoman empire. We each got pieces of Rumelia. There was NO SUCH THING AS AN ETHNIC MACEDONIAN back then. (census data easily proves they still considered themselves “ethnic Bulgarians’ back then)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Statistical_data
You state: “the Greeks were present in only small numbers (source - Turkish property lists of tax payers from 100 years ago, only available within the recent years).”
Lol. I bet you don’t mention that whatever your claimed turkish source is… it doesn’t show the existence of even a single”ethnic Macedonian” does it? (since you called yourselves BULGARIANS back then.
Perhaps you should also consider looking at actual census data from the period which also shows the opposite of your claim… that plenty of Greeks lived in Macedonia! (along with you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians who are also well recorded
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Statistical_data
“During the civil war in 1950’s, many Greeks left the country to prevent being prosecuted or even physically eliminated.”
Well dah. There were communists that were responsible for the deaths of over 100K greeks when they tried to take over Greece by force (with the help of Tito and Stalin). Fortunately for the world the west defeated communists dictators… so you could have the freedom of speech to spout your gibberish. Greeks kicked out both Greeks and Slavs that were communists. They also allowed Slavs that were loyal to Greece to stay. (who remain to this day). The only people they won’t let into Greece is the former ethnic Bulgarians of FYROM that are trying to immigrate to Greece as a sort of legal invasion. Greece has no problems allowing Bulgarians from Bulgaria to visit and legally move to Greece… or Serbs, or Albanians (who practically invade the country illegally anyhow). All Greeks want is to protect territorial integrity from irredentist FYROM nationalist loons that think Greeks are obligated to hand over 1/3 of their country to them.
You wrote: “{Later on, only Greeks of “Greek origin” were allowed to repatriate. The others (mainly Macedonians) lost that right and today are dispersed all over the world. Their properties have been confiscated and given to Greeks from Trakia after the exchange of population with Turkey (partially) and Bulgaria (mainly). The “newcomers” represent today’s 2.5 mio Greek macedonians. The expelled people today cannot enter Greece even they are passport holders of Canada, US or Australia.”
And I don’t think Greece should let them in until they stop referring to Macedonia as “occupied” and “divided” and this name dispute is worked up. Otherwise its obvious you are just using it as a ruse to claim your “homeland” and trigger another war. Good fences make for better neighbours sometimes.
You state “In today’s Greece you may publicly speak Macedonian, but literaly still on your own risk.”
More nonsense. No one is prevented from speaking their language in Greece (including FYROM’s language). What is prevented is FYROM nationalists registering the name “Macedonia” (since our former ethnic Bulgarian neigbbours play these name games to try and place a stake in Macedonia Greece as native “homeland”)
You state: “Only after the death of Tito (the former Yugoslavian president) and when become apparent that republics would gain independence, Greece introduced the term Macedonia (strictly forbidden before) ”
Lies, lies and more lies. Greece has been using the name Macedonia in schools, churches, buildings, highways, etc… etc.. officially since it liberated Macedonia from the Ottomans in 1911. There are countless pieces of evidence. to disprove this ridiculous myth spread far and wide by FYROM nationalists.
e.g. the “Macedonia” newspaper from 1911 (still in circulation today actually)
http://www.i-macedonia.com/blog/files/liberation-of-macedonia-newspaper-1912.jpg
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,718771,00.html
Even foreign sources mention it.
e.g. Time refers to “Premier Sofoulis, ex-Governor of Macedonia”
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,718771,00.html
Now my turn.
Why don’t you “ethnic Macedonians” explain to everyone how a country the used to be full of “ethnic Bulgarians, Albanians, Serbs, Greeks, and Roman” and not even a single “ethnic Macedonian”……. turned into a country of “ethnic Macedonians”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Statistical_data
To Haaken:
“Modern Macedonians have nothing to do with the ancient ones. Slavs settled in the region almost 1000 years after the time of Alexander. ”
So did the English, Irish and German settled America and they are called Americans and not English or German….
When the slav tribes settled the Macedonian region, did they somehow stopped at the magical border of today’s Greece?
If you are applying this rule for Republic of Macedonia you should also apply it for Greece too…
It is kind of interesting though, that Greeks do not mention any slavs within their country… hmmmm….
My point is through out the last 3000 to 4000 there were multiple groups of civilizations crossing and settling through out this region.
People that settled in this region took the culture and tradition of the local people while changing the language. Unlsess you can find me some scientific prove that Slavs have somehow eradicated all Native Macedonians and and from another side Greeks have cleansed all the Slavs from their region while magically leaving out the “Greek” Macedonians, our claim does not hold any water.
Macedonians do not intend to concur Greeks Northern region, we are only fighting for our right to freely say what we are and what we have been for generations, Macedonians.
It is an absurd to give Greece full rights to the name just because of some ancient story that Greece has been selling it out for the last 60 years.
@Jim Monaghan
Aside from clearly hating Greeks (given your endless mudslinging towards them) I’d say your political views sound much like many communists. (and I say this as some one that fluctuates between moderate left and right as a swing voter). Communists are always trying to “unite” something for some global utopia.
The idea of universal human empire has been around for ages. For instance, middle age Christian fundamentalists and extreme Islamists today work(ed) toward this (just want to note: the majority of Christians and Muslims are decent people)
A nation is a fundamental unit of living in a civilized world. There will always be something approximating a state even if we call it something else. (e.g. even if we got rid of every nation on earth and had one big global government- there would still be administrative regions within it competing for resources/prestige)
In short, there is nothing with patrionism and MODERATE nationalism. In fact, I would argue whats evil is extreme nationalists. For instance, the Greek idiot soldiers in the video above. Or say FYROM nationalists on this blog that repeat every word their government utters like some bible. Or Lukidists and far right wing American wingnuts seemingly trying to trigger WW3)…
What is also evil is the exact opposite…. those that work to erase our national heritages and wipe out our identities for silly fantasies. There are short term exceptions but over the long haul there is nothing gained through complete unification. For example, lets suppose we created a new EU country and demolished all our countries, language, etc.. Does anyone really believe looking at history that it will last forever? Of course that to will one day breakup and change (maybe in a 100 years maybe in a 1000). And whatever comes after that… will also one day be replaced.
@Peter
You stated in a reply to this…
“Modern Macedonians have nothing to do with the ancient ones. Slavs settled in the region almost 1000 years after the time of Alexander. ”
:So did the English, Irish and German settled America and they are called Americans and not English or German….”
Bad analogy. “America” is a new term and didn’t really belong to anyone. “Macedonia” is a term in use in several nations (prior to its use in FYROM) and is quite ancient. FYROM is clearly trying to monopolize its use to claim territory in other states.
For example, here is a recent picture of the current PM of FYROM laying a wreath a flowers in from of a map directly in front of his face of “United Macedonia”… that includes 1/3 of Greek territory annexed.
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7110/megalhmakedoniaik7.jpg
To any of our Irish friends out there…. try and image waking up one day and finding a picture in the newspaper of the British PM laying those same flowers with huge sections of Ireland annexed to England to understand how extremely insulting and inexcusable that behavior is. Its borders on an act of war (which is why Greeks are so unrelenting on this issue no matter who “recognizes” the former self-identifying Bulgarians as newly minted “ethnic Macedonians”).
This is why FYROM nationalists try to throw so much dirt at Greeks as minority oppressors. They are trying to lump themselves in as “persecuted”. What they don’t like to mention when they report the “facts” about their persecution…. is gems like this.
“The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.
(Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)
41Petar
To Haaken:
“Modern Macedonians have nothing to do with the ancient ones. Slavs settled in the region almost 1000 years after the time of Alexander. ”
So did the English, Irish and German settled America and they are called Americans and not English or German….
@ peter
You state: “When the slav tribes settled the Macedonian region, did they somehow stopped at the magical border of today’s Greece?”
And I can utter when millions of Greeks used to dominate the regioin did they “magically” stop at the border of today’s FYROM?
You state “It is kind of interesting though, that Greeks do not mention any slavs within their country… hmmmm…”
Rubbish. The last census recorded far more Slavs in Greece… then there are Greeks in FYROM. So what happened to all the Greeks that used to live in FYROM? (which countless artifacts in your country WRITTEN IN GREEK that you pawn off as your own attest to). Who exactly is the invader again?
“My point is through out the last 3000 to 4000 there were multiple groups of civilizations crossing and settling through out this region”
Indeed. The same is true for nearly every region of the world. For instance, Israel used to be part of the Ottoman empire to. According to your seemingly racists views of identity then Jews don’t exist. (hate conforming to Godwin’s law but it sounds like you have Nazi-like views on ethnicity)
The fact is bubba before the Ottoman state took over the region there were Bulgarians (i.e. essentially YOUR ethnic background) and Byzantine”Romans” (as much of Europe was official roman citizens at one time). However, what they don’t like to teach you in FYROM history books is many of those Romans spoke Greek, studied Greek philosophy/history…. and considered ancient Greeks their ancestors. (with some like Pletho even arguing to bring back the ancient Gods around the 15th century)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_scholars_in_the_Renaissance
Answers to Likethestate
I would not usually allow to be dragged into polemics of this type, but your comments are a bit insulting and go to a personal level. It is not kind calling someone a nationalist and commenting only the opinions and avoiding the facts.
If “Greece doesn’t usually TRACK minorities” and “recognizes Jews” statement is fine, but to the moment that the ethnic groups which are significant in number are not tracked as Greece deliberately does not collect data on ethnicity. On 4 November 2000, Greece signed Protocol No. 12 to the European Convention on Human Rights, but it has not yet ratified this instrument. If it does, the percentage of minorities would be revealed so the Greek Government would be obliged to assure proper services on their native language to the native Greek citizens (not immigrants) declaring themselves being of non-Greek origin. Greece has also not signed the or ratified the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.
The relevant European Commission against Racism and Intolerance document is repeated for reference purposes.
http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/ecri/Country-by-country/Greece/Greece_CBC_en.asp - 15 Sep 2009, pp. 33
The Another document issued by the UN Human Rights Council may be found below:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13022753/UN-Minorities-Rights-Report-on-Greece-2008-
Reading the summary of the UN report is sufficient to get the picture.
The Treaty of Bucharest (however only the public version) is widely available on Internet. Maps showing the region under interest differ, but in contrast to yours, please see the maps on the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Bucharest_(1913)
So you may find many other sources on the same Wikipedia only if you want. But my previous links are solid as rock.
The Turkish lists reveal names and family names of the villagers from areas all over Northern Greece and there was no data related to ethnicity. Today, however, none of the mentioned names exist as all have been changed to Greek by force, including the geographical toponyms. By the way, one of the Greek requests in the name dispute is that Macedonians should refer the toponyms only on Greek, ignoring the pronunciation of your own citizens of non-Greek origin. So Budimpesta should not be called Budapest, Cologne Koln, Belgrade Beograd, London Londra, Skopje Skopia (Greek) or Skoplje (Serbian) etc. Info related to this Greek practice may be found in the EC and UN links from above.
The Greek census from 1920s is one of the most carefully concealed documents in Greece. However, copies (on Greek) have been revealed and examples reprinted by the newspapers in Macedonia. The entire set will be revealed soon, as announced by different sources.
The first “Abecedar” (the book of alphabet) was published, on demand by the then League of Nations, bilingually on both macedonian and Greek, some 80 years ago by the Greek government of the time. The reprints are available today.
http://www.vkblog.nl/bericht/88542/The_Promotion_of_the_%5C%22Abecedar%5C%22_in_Greece_by_%5C%22Rainbow%5C%22_is_History%3B_New_One_is_Needed
To further avoid giving you links, just see the titles on the following Reports page:
http://www.vinozito.gr/reports.asp
The civil war in the 1950’s was a civil war between Greek citizens with different political background (as in Spain, for example), not an invasion from outside. Allowing only Greeks of Greek origin to repatriate is selecting people by race, and that is racist. The law is still in power. Solid as rock.
Greece has NOT used the toponym Macedonia referring to its Northern province since the last 25 - 30 years. The links you are giving are from the 1920’s when the Abecedar has been also published and “non-existing” census carried out.
“Now my turn. Why don’t you “ethnic Macedonians” explain to everyone how a country the used to be full of “ethnic Bulgarians, Albanians, Serbs, Greeks, and Roman” and not even a single “ethnic Macedonian”……. turned into a country of “ethnic Macedonians”.
Yes, our country is full of ethnic Bulgarians, Albanians, Serbs, Greeks, and Roman (whatever it means, I guess Roma). And not only that, almost all of them are mentioned in the Preamble of the Constitution for some 60 years, in the top legal document. And yes, they learn on their native language, got printed and digital media, got associations, parties… And the majority of population proclaims themselves as Macedonians, speaking Macedonian. that’s why the country is called Macedonia. They have done it in centuries.
But we do not sing “You do not become Greek, you are born Greek, we will drink your blood, listen to this oh Albanian pig” and be proud of it. We do not change names of our citizens. We do not forbid them to call Skopje Shkup.
Solid as rock.
To the FYROM nationalist..
As I said to you another another forum, you (and a few others trying to sweep this under the rug) can play all the persecution games you’d like…
I’m still waiting for you to point me to the line in 19th century census data that shows “ethnic Macedonians”. What happened to all the Bulgarians that lived in FYROM and where did the “ethnic Macedonians” come from?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Statistical_data
Just one quick note…
ALL KNOWN DOCUMENTS from the ancient time AGREE that Alexander and the generals in the Macedonian army spoke a language not known to the common Greek soldiers…
Philip II, the father of Alexander was not allowed to compete on the Olympic Games since he was not a true Greek…
do I need to say anything else, this are FACTS agreed even by the Greek archaeologists.
My dear friend Likethestate, are you one of the guys shouting the slogans with the army on that parade? If not, you are quite close to becoming one. Hate only brings more hate, calls of this nature are not seen in the most savage of the countries today, but Greece or Hellas or the cradle of democracy… so so so shameful…
to: Likethestate
the ex Turkish province of Greece has no right to fyrom anyone
I’m a Macedonian, whether you like it or no…
by the way first learn some history and then speak of history
@miodrag
You say “by the way first learn some history and then speak of history”
Ok then. If you are an expert then please point me to the line in 19th century census data of the region (from many countries using many methods) that shows the existence of “ethnic Macedonians”?
I can find self-identifying Bulgarians that lived in FYROM but no “ethnic Macedonians”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Statistical_data
And why did you former elected PM recently come clean that massive numbers of FYROM nationalists are spreading myths in the media?
“To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[…] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[…] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[…]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[…]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[…]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[…]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[…] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ” (Ljubco Georgievski, ex-Prime Minister of FYROM, FYROM A1 TV June 2009) http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI
And why would you own “Macedonian” national heros from the 19th century found an organization exclusively for Bulgarians?
Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the BULGARIAN POPULATION in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas - printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising.
Chapter II. - Structure and Organization
Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any BULGARIAN, independent of gender
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Internal_Macedonian_Revolutionary_Organization
(statute of BMARC, predecessor of IMRO, 1896. co-authored by Gotse Delchev and other future IMRO members)
To 47??????????
I agree with you man. The reason that why greek soldiers reported that Alexander spoke a language unknown for them is that his mother was 100% albanian, she was princess of Epirus and his father too from the tribu of molosians (about him greeks are very conservative, they don’t admit, no way for them to say, he had albanian origin). The problem was that people were fascinated at that time by greek culture (not same greeks as today) and therefore they prefered (even Alexander) to live there, not knowing that one day people like me and you will had long discussions about his origins. This can sound to someone bullshit but if we try to be reasonable we will understand that are not many alternatives to fix Alexander’s origin, because for sure he was not slav,(they were not there) and if greeks have admited that his soldiers didn’t understood his language what else can stay exept albanian. And more ; albanian national hero is named “Skenderbeg” that in turk means “Alexander the great” and if turks give this name to him, i don’t think they did it just like this, but they did the link between Alexander’s origin and Skenderbeg’s origin which was the same “albanian”. About the meaning of the name “Skenderbeg” my friends i have to admit that i didn’t know myself until recently (because normal i don’t speak turk). If you are not convinced by my arguments you can always see the documentary ” Skenderbeu, warrior king of Albania” to have a better idea about the role of each of balkan countrys in their combat against the otoman empire. By the way the documentary is not produced by albanians. Despite uncontestable datas about greek culture, there are evidences also that show that greeks have a tendence to steal others people history. I will not go any further tonight but i can’t stay without saying a word when i listen that some gayreek soldiers in 21-century behave even worse than in Africa (pretending to be a member of EU) when at the same time Albania has never invaded a single country (not because we couldn’t, by the way Skenderbeg landed in Italy with 3000 men to restore order after being called by italian king of Naples) but it’s not in our nature to take advantage on other weaker countrys what the strangers are trying to do with us today. The main problem for Albania is that we sacrified ourselves in our strugle against the otomans thinking that we were doing well, and look at the result today. Some here can say, yes but you were the only who changed the faith; i respond to them that turks take the albanians when they were still boys at the age of 6 to train and at the same time to kill any patriotic feeling in them in order not to have rebellions, and more other balkan neighbors weren’t considered a threat to Otoman Empire that’s why they didn’t give a shit about greeks or serbs because they had already tested them in battle and they had seen that the only who vanquished them alone were albanians. By the way the serb king ‘Brankovich” gave his daughter to sultan in order to have his merci but albanians didn’t give a single thing to turks exept their swords. So men is good for you to know all these facts before analysing the situation and not to stereotype some populations without even knowing their history.I agree with greeks to a single point; maybe they have right when they say that macedonia was part of Greece because really at that time slavs weren’t there yet so……
Someone just claimed (presumably from FYROM)
“ALL KNOWN DOCUMENTS from the ancient time AGREE that Alexander and the generals in the Macedonian army spoke a language not known to the common Greek soldiers…”
Well that “ALL known documents” theory sure is easy to blow away. First off, only a small number of scholars claim ancient Macedonians didn’t speak a Greek dialect. There are several reasons.
a. even though there are occasional vague references to speaking “Macedonian” it could very well be referencing just another Greek dialect (sort of like with a thick accent like someone from liverpool trying to speak to an Aussie)
b. I doubt you are aware not a single complete work have ever been found in this alleged language. Not one. Most of the pre-500ish BC Macedonian langauge looked like Greek but there are a few hundred scattered words (that belong to a period over centuries) that don’t have counterparts in other Greek dialects. Some argue that this is enough evidence of a different language. The argument goes the same is true of other Greek dialects as well. The too have their nuances not common to other dialects. That’s what makes a dialect. (which ironically enough is word with a Greek etymology)
c. Then the biggest problem with the theory that Macedonians had a unique language. Why would they adopt Attic Greek and latter Koine Greek dialects? (the most popular ones in Greece) They conquered all the Greek states and made it almost to india… and every where they went they spread Koine Greek as a primary language. Why wouldn’t they spread the “Macedonian language” if such a thing existed? Did Romans spread Greek or Latin? England spread French or English? Yada yada…
————-
“The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed and discussed by Kalleris and Hammond, Griffith, and many others, all contending that it was a dialect of Greek. The increasing volume of surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy, but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There is no evidence for a different “Macedonian” language that cannot be as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.” (Cambridge Ancient Histories”, Cambridge Univ. Press, 1998)
surviving public and private inscriptions indicate that there was no written language in ancient Macedonia but Greek. The Macedonian names of about half or more of the months of the ancient Macedonian calendar have a clear and generally accepted Greek etymology.
‘Macedonia’ is a name commonly used to refer to a region of northern Greece, and that the people of such region are, within the Hellenic Republic, customarily referred to as ‘Macedonians’
“We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)Another perhaps? “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4
Most FYROM nationalists deny Greeks connection to ancient Macedonians, after decades of state propaganda many have convinced themselves ancient Macedonians weren’t self-identifying Greeks and that their own 19th century ancestors weren’t self-identifying Bulgarians.
In short, some of Greece’s neighbours want to slowly rewrite all of western history to match their state narrative.
The reality is most Slavic speakers in Greece DON’T identify with FYROM, Greeks consider ancient Macedon part of their history-not that of the neighbouring state.
Likethestate you offer alot of interesting points, I have encountered a similar argument on my blog, I congratulate you on your responses here.
Answers to Likethestate -again after all !?
My dear fellow,
Your answer to the post no. 45 was quite short.
About the question where did the “ethnic Macedonians” come from, ask your Government as the census of the newly gained territory in the early 1920’s was carried out by them.
The statement of the present Macedonian PM you refer is a bit different, but you selected only the part that suits you. Please read the entire statement as you obviously have an access to it.
When you refer to the ex PM please note that he was elected to get rid of the post communist corrupt government. When he promptly lost the next elections he immediately took the Bulgarian citizenship to be ’safe’ from prosecution as he sold the Skopje refinery to a Greek company and took a massive provision. His popularity today of 0.1% gives you the clear picture. Part of his provision has to be paid by you and your compatriots in the next decade or so.
You touch the issue of ethno genesis of the Macedonians (with so much atrocity) as simply there is no other valid argument you got. Well, someone else got an answer to it as the genetic science and sample data have developed sufficient enough to provide some answers. You should understand that DNA is an analysis which would give you answers of your ancestors as part of primitive tribes, and that has very little to do with today’s political identification as say Greek or Macedonian. But nevertheless…
One of the leading European private companies performing genetic analyses do offer individuals an overview of their genealogy. They also have database which, few months ago, showed the following results:
“Indigenous People in Macedonia
30% Macedonian
10% Illyrian
15% Hellenen
5% Phoenician
20% Germanic
5% Hunnen
15% Slavs
Indigenous People in Albania:
30% Illyrians
15% Phoenician
14% Hellenen
18% Thraker
2% Vikings
20% Slavs
Indigenous People in Greece:
10% Germanic
10% Illyrians
20% Slavs
20% Phoenician
5% Macedonian (in north more than 18%)
35% Hellenen
Indigenous People in Bulgaria:
49% Thraker
11% Macedonian
15% Slavs
15% Hellenen
5% Pheonician “
After huge reaction by the Greeks, the database results have been promptly removed and company’s responses became - say- much more softer.
Please also read the first question and the kind (and very political) answer to it on the following link:
http://www.igenea.com/index.php?content=132&st=765
You may also read the conversation on the following link where the author has something to say about the Greek origin of the tribes in today’s Afghanistan, the ancestors of the army of Alexander the Great.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2006-10/1161432323
Two citations, for clarity purposes:
“I decided to follow suit and enter the same data at YHRD. I entered the above haplotype and came up with a list of the populations with matches to this profile. What struck me immediately was the almost complete ABSENCE of this haplotype in Greece itself!!!! “
and
“198 samples above, plus 37 out of 41 samples in Thrace, for a total of 235 samples found in Greece had NO appearance of this haplotype whatsoever. The E3b1 modal appeared in just 4 out of 235 samples within the borders of Greece itself and those in a region that was originally part of Thracia.
How can anyone say credibly that this group is representative of a displaced Greek population? At the very least it is Macedonian and considering the known composition of Alexander’s army, may have been Thracian instead.
The problem, obviously, is with the misidentification of Alexander as a Greek rather than a Macedonian by these researchers. If they had stated that the Pathan population of Pakistan had been descended from Macedonians who accompanied Alexander, I believe that they would have hit the mark. “
And that, among others, was not stated by a Macedonian.
Regarding the Ancient Macedonian language, please visit the following page:
http://forum.kajgana.com/showthread.php?p=594829
To challenge the non-interested parties, it talks about the stone of Rosetta, the same one that Jean-François Champollion used to break the code of the Egyptian symbolic writing so we can today enjoy and understand the treasures of the ancient Egypt…
Thank you very much helping me so other people may read this group blog to understand the roots of the Greek army behavior and singing of such songs. To remind you, it also happened two years ago in Salonika, in the front of your re-elected President and other NATO dignitaries. Embarrassing, after all…
@ Likethestate
Early Macedonian Emigration to the United States
DETROIT, United States - It is unknown exactly when Macedonians arrived in North America for the first time but according to census records we can trace them as far back as 1860. These Macedonians came to America as pechalbari (migrant workers) looking for work to supplement their meagre incomes. They left their beloved Macedonia, a desolate land ravaged by war and ethnic cleansing where regardless of what government was in power or which group ruled over them, persecution was an every day occurrence. Regardless of which nationality, ethnic group or religion the Macedonians belonged, they were always exploited and left poor, illiterate and deprived of any hope for a better future.
When it seemed things couldn’t get any worse, after the Balkan wars of 1912, 1913, Macedonia, in its entirety, was erased from the map. A few decades later the Macedonian people were denationalized and turned into Greeks, Serbians, Bulgarians or Albanians depending upon country that particular part of Macedonia fell under.
With all that going on, Macedonians still felt Macedonian and carried their identity in their hearts as they arrived in America, a land where they were free to call themselves Macedonian and speak their Macedonian language.
Even this information would have been erased had it not been for the diligence of the American census office to record it on paper for posterity. Had it not been for census takers we would not have known about the Macedonians who landed in the United States in those early days and declared themselves as Macedonians coming from a far away land called Macedonia.
The first census taken in the United States was in 1790 when it was discovered that 3.9 million people lived there. It is unknown if any of them were Macedonians but in the 1860 census, a little over a half century later, the name “Macedonia” appeared.
OK, satisfied?
No…. OK
in Australia…. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Australian
The Macedonian language was the tenth most common language spoken in Australia after English…
OK few words about the ancient history… read the book
Alexander of Macedon 356-323 B.C.: A Historical Biography
by Peter Green, surely he is not from Macedonia…
http://www.amazon.com/Alexander-Macedon-356-323-B-C-Historical/dp/0520071662/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1270021978&sr=8-1
and then maybe you will see another view to the ancient history, not the one that your nationalist and fascist historians have tough you….
and you can check the links below….
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/AlexandertheGreat.html
http://www.mymacedonia.net/history/alexander.htm
http://www.mymacedonia.net/history/philip.htm
http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/AlexandertheGreat.html
…
and stop spreading nationalism, it’s not good for you :)))
your health will suffer
People of ethnic Macedonian origin are found living in all of this regions, but most often the basic human rights are not recognised by this countries, they speak the language, they have the Macedonian customs, but they have to declare themselves Greek, Bulgarians or Albanians. Although in the last 10 years there are many Macedonians opposing this trend and there are political parties in Albania, Bulgaria and Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_of_Albania, The mayor of Pustec/Liqenas is Edmond Vangjel Themelko according to 2007 local elections. He is a Macedonian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_Macedonians_in_Bulgaria, For a period of some years after the war, the Yugoslav and Bulgarian leaders Josip Broz Tito and Georgi Dimitrov worked on a project to merge their two countries into a Balkan Federative Republic according to the projects of Balkan Communist Federation. As a concession to the Yugoslavian side, Bulgarian authorities agreed to the recognition of a distinct Macedonian ethnicity and language as part of their own population in the Bulgarian part of geographical Macedonia.)
Although this is more less Greek nationalist view, look at the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28Greece%29
Minority populations
For more details on this topic, see Minorities in Greece.
The exact size of the linguistic and ethnic minority groups of Macedonia is officially unknown, as Greece has not conducted a census on the question of mother tongue since 1951. The main minority groups in Macedonia are:
[edit] Slavic-speakers
Distribution of the Slavic Macedonian language in the Florina Prefecture and Aridaia regions (1993)
Main article: Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia
See also: Slavic dialects of Greece
Slavic-speakers are concentrated in the Florina, Kastoria, Edessa, Giannitsa, Ptolemaida and Naousa regions. Their dialects are linguistically classified variously either as Macedonian or Bulgarian, depending on the region and on political orientation. The exact number of the minority is difficult to know, together with its members’ choice of ethnic identification, is difficult to ascertain; most maximum estimates range around 100,000–120,000. The Greek branch of the former International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights has estimated that those of an ethnic Macedonian national conscienceness number between 10,000–30,000.[23]
To the FYROM nationalist
you state: “About the question where did the “ethnic Macedonians” come from, ask your Government as the census of the newly gained territory in the early 1920’s was carried out by them.”
I have no idea what you are talking about (since you did not provide a source) but even if what you say is true… so what? You completely avoided answering my question and jumped decades ahead.
So obviously you couldn’t answer my question as to why there is no census evidence of “ethnic Macedonians” in the period I mention… because no such thing existed. You freeely called yourselves Bulgarians back then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Statistical_data
As for you genetics “evidence”, you’ve sourced in from a private for-profit- DNA-kit company called “igenea” that unilaterally decided to catagorize “macedonian” seperate than “Greek”. (i.e. They could have also decided to catagorize athenian seperate than spartan if they wished.)
But running with the results for a moment, Even using your own (flawed) interpretation it would show Greeks are related to ancient Greeks at a much higher frequency than FYROM. In addition, Greece has five times your population, 5% of the Greek population allegedly being “Macedonian” means there are essentially as many Macedonians in Greece as there are in FYROM. In short, you’ve said nothing that would resolve the issue
However, you’ve misinterpreted what they are saying. Their claims (unverified) is sharing a common ancestor not that you belong to some “race” or are “Indigenous “. We share common ancestors with many people.
Furthermore, many geneticists consider DNA kit companies a scam. For instance, if you query the Igenea for the the sources for their cadavers and ask them for the methodology they used, they avoid answering. Instead they’ll point you to a pdf filled with a wide variety of studies covering the entire globe…. none of them that use the word “Macedonian” in then. I myself have repeatedly asked them which specific study(s) they used-and they refused to answer and just bizarrely kept practicing avoidence pointing to the vague pdf.
Not one academic institution has ever been able to repeat their claimed results but I’m sure they don’t care. They probably make lots of money off FYROM nationalists buying their services.
Many reputable university studies have been done on Greek DNA. Virtually all of them that checked show we are biologically connected to ancient Greeks. There are some that even say we are even connected to Neolithic one’s as well. However again, these kinds of studies dosn’t really say anything about race or culture or the history between then. All they say says is somewhere among my many many ancestors I share a few common genes with a few cadavers they found. We have genes from many places-that’s what makes us human above all.
—————-
“.. we can now turn to the use-or misuse-of genetic findings in the battle of territorial claims. The Macedonians, the Sami of northern Scandinavia, and Palestinians are three groups that have seized upon deeply problematic interpretations of new genetic evidence to bolster claims to sovereignty.[..] Most of today’s Macedonians are in fact citizens of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, carved out of the remains of Yugoslavia in 1991[..}They speak a Slavic language, part of a family of tongues brought to the Balkans by Slavic tribes in the sixth and seventh centuries, and first began to develop a unique national identity at the turn of the twentieth century. Nonetheless, [..] some of these citizens believe that they are in fact the descendants of Alexander the Great of Macedon, and as such “are not Slavs, but have a direct descent from the ancient Macedonians. ” (Diana Muir & Paul S. Appelbaum: The Gene Wars)
As for your “Macedonian language” it used to be widely considered a BULGARIAN dialect in the 19th century. It was only finally formalized into its current form by the communists in the mid 20th century.
Venko Markovski Born on March 15, 1915 in Skopje was present for three Yugoslavian commissions for the codification of the Macedonian alphabet. He published one of the first contemporary books written in standardized “Macedonian”, “Narodni bigori” in 1938.
Mr. Markovski was a member of the National Liberation War of “Macedonia” and was a political figure in what soon after became known as “The People’s Republic of Macedonia”(a province of Yugoslavia that was renamed from “Vardarska Banovinja” by communist dictator Tito in 1944)
In an interview for Bulgarian National Television (January 1, 1988), he stated ethnic Macedonians and the modification of a Bulgarian dialect into a full blown Macedonian “language” was primary a Comintern conspiracy. (communist international).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venko_Markovski
e.g.
“You seem to be afraid of Kimon Georgiev, you have involved yourselves too much with him and do not want to give autonomy to Pirin Macedonia. That a Macedonian consciousness HAS NOT YET DEVELOPED AMONG THE POPULATION IS OF NO ACCOUNT. No such consciousness existed in Byelorussia either when we proclaimed it a Soviet Republic. However, later it was shown that a Byelorussian people did in fact exist.” [Stalin to Bulgarian Delegation on 7 June 1946 (G. Dimitrov, V. Korarov, T. Kostov) ]
@miodrag
You make also sorts of bold claims about some sort of census evidence of the existence of “ethnic Macedonians” during the 19th century and earlier but don’t provide a single precise source. Rather odd no?
On the other hand I can provide you very spectifc census sources (from many countries) that show “ethnic Macedonians” didn’t exist back then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Statistical_data
What existed is Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians, Roma, Jews, Turks, Serbs, and others in RUMELIA. Part of Rumelia also overlaped with the UNOFFICIAL historic region of ancient Macedonia (whose precise borders are not known to this day and varied during the Hellensitic period). Anyone of those people could have also referenced themselves “Macedonian” (in the unofficial geographic sense not ethnic)
Even some of your own politicians have come out of the closet and admitted it,
e,g
Why are we ashamed and flee from the truth that whole positive Macedonian revolutionary tradition comes exactly from exarchist part of Macedonian people? We shall not say a new truth if we mention the fact that everyone, Gotse Delchev, Dame Gruev, Gjorche Petrov, Pere Toshev - must I list and count all of them - were teachers of the Bulgarian Exarchate in Macedonia.’
(former Prime Minister and Vice President of FYROM, Ljubco Georgievski, 2007, in his book ‘Facing the truth’)
e.g
“The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.
(Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 and ambassador to the United Nations from 1993 to 1997, in an interview to FYROMian newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)
And Greeks are far from alone in the assertion you used to call yourselves Bulgarians. Pretty much every historian and all the evidence from the period confirms it.
“The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim.
(Loring Danforth, “The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World”, Princeton Univ Press, December 1995 p.56)
“Krste Misirkov, who had clearly developed a strong sense of his own personal national identity as a Macedonian and who outspokenly and unambiguously called for Macedonian linguistic and national separatism, acknowledged that a Macedonian national identity was a relatively recent historical development.” (p.63)
“The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov’s call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians.(p.64)
“I suggested to Patrick Leigh Fermor to suggest in his article in the Independent the name of “PAEONIA” as the most suitable for Skopje . […]”Therefore, given the struggle of the three ethnic groups (Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians) for the control of Macedonia AND THE ABSENCE OF ANY LOCAL NATIONAL MOVEMENT, we can talk of Macedonia only as a GEOGRAPHICAL ENTITY AND NOT as A NATION.” - Ancient Macedonian historian Nicholas Hammond in an interview with the magazine “Macedonian Echo” in February, 1999
“But who are the Macedonians? You will find Bulgarians and Turks who call themselves Macedonians, you find Greek Macedonians, there are Servian Macedonians, and it is possible to find Roumanian Macedonians. You will NOT, however, find a single Christian Macedonian who is not a Servian, a Bulgarian, a Greek, or a Roumanian. They all curse the Turk, and they love Macedonia. But it is Greek Macedonia, or Bulgarian Macedonia, and their eyes flame with passion, whilst their fingers seek the triggers of their guns “Pictures From The Balkans” ”
by John Foster Fraser (published in 1906), PAGE 5
“The origin of the Macedonian dispute the south-east half of Slav Macedonia where the population was most nearly Bulgarian”
The New Macedonian Question (St. Antony’s) by James Pettifer, page 12
“Where an overaching identity existed among Slavs in Macedonia, it was a Bulgarian one until at least the 1860s. The cultural impetus for a seperated Macedonian identity would only emerge LATER” - Outcast Europe BY Tom Gallagher, page 47
“And so the “Bulgarophone” villagers are no longer willing to admit they speak Bulgarian. They have coined a new term of their own accord, and henceforth, until they have got rid of it, is to be known as “Macedonian“. My Athenian friends were delighted when I told them of this on my return. It should give even greater pleasure to those Bulgarian agents who are so anxious to see the Macedonians taught they are Macedonians.
(Allen Upward, The East End of Europe, London 1908, pp 205)
“It should be remembered, to begin with, that there is NO Macedonian race, as a distinct type. Macedonians may belong to any of the races of Eastern Europe or Western Asia, as, indeed, they do. A Macedonian Bulgar is just the same as a Bulgar of Bulgaria proper, the old principality, that in October, 1908, at Tirnova, was proclaimed independent of Turkey. He looks the same, talks the same, and very largely, thinks the same way. IN SHORT HE IS OF THE SAME STOCK. There is no difference, whatsoever, between the two branches of the race, except that the Macedonian Bulgars, as a result of their position under the Turkish government, have less culture and education than their northern brethren. ”
(Arthur Douglas Howden Smith, “Fighting the Turk in the Balkans: An American’s Adventures with the Macedonian Revolutionists”, 1908, p. 4-5)
“Modern Slavs, both Bulgarians and Macedonians, cannot establish a link with antiquity, as the Slavs entered the Balkans centuries after the demise of the ancient Macedonian kingdom. Only the most radical Slavic factions—mostly émigrés in the United States, Canada, and Australia—even attempt to establish a connection to antiquity […] The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one.”
(Eugene N. Borza, “Macedonia Redux”, in “The Eye Expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman Antiquity”)
It is the national identity of these Slav Macedonians that has been the most violently contested aspect of the whole Macedonian dispute, and is still being contested today. There is NO DOUBT that they are southern Slavs; they have a language, or a group of varying dialects, that is grammatically akin to Bulgarian but phonetically in some respects akin to Serbian, and which has certain quite distinctive features of its own.
(Elisabeth Barker, “Macedonia, its place in Balkan power politics”)
“Ever since 1878 there had been a sizeable Macedonian presence in Bulgaria…Most if not all Macedonians in Bulgaria at this period regarded themselves as ethnically Bulgarian and the refugees were a potential political lobby of considerable size.”
“Ideologies and national identities: the case of twentieth-century” by John R. Lampe, Mark Mazower 2004 page 125
etc.. etc..
As for you historical claims of ancient macedonias… I recommend you talk to more historians (whom you cherry pick). The vast majority of historicians consider ancient Macedonians Greeks. Of those that don’t most of them argue that they eventually became indistinguishable from the rest of the Greek world during the Hellenstics case.
And in either case… what does that have do with you? If You claim to be a Macedonians….. why don’t you want to speak the language of Macedonians… Greeek? 2.5 million Macedonians in Greece speak it why do don’t you?
Incidentally academics don’t usually get involved in political disputes but there is a growing rebellion of accredited historians that have protested against FYROM’s behavior.(including from some of the most prestigious universities around the world like Cambridge, Harvard, etc..) Listen to what they have to say….
——–
We, the undersigned scholars of Graeco-Roman antiquity, respectfully request that you intervene to clean up some of the historical debris left in southeast Europe by the previous U.S. administration.
On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia.” This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great.
We believe that this silliness has gone too far, and that the U.S.A. has no business in supporting the subversion of history. Let us review facts. (The documentation for these facts [here in boldface] can be found attached and at: http://macedonia-evidence.org/documentation.html)
The land in question, with its modern capital at Skopje, was called Paionia in antiquity. Mts. Barnous and Orbelos (which form today the northern limits of Greece) provide a natural barrier that separated, and separates, Macedonia from its northern neighbor. The only real connection is along the Axios/Vardar River and even this valley “does not form a line of communication because it is divided by gorges.”
While it is true that the Paionians were subdued by Philip II, father of Alexander, in 358 B.C. they were not Macedonians and did not live in Macedonia. Likewise, for example, the Egyptians, who were subdued by Alexander, may have been ruled by Macedonians, including the famous Cleopatra, but they were never Macedonians themselves, and Egypt was never called Macedonia.
Rather, Macedonia and Macedonian Greeks have been located for at least 2,500 years just where the modern Greek province of Macedonia is. Exactly this same relationship is true for Attica and Athenian Greeks, Argos and Argive Greeks, Corinth and Corinthian Greeks, etc.
We do not understand how the modern inhabitants of ancient Paionia, who speak Slavic – a language introduced into the Balkans about a millennium after the death of Alexander – can claim him as their national hero. Alexander the Great was thoroughly and indisputably Greek. His great-great-great grandfather, Alexander I, competed in the Olympic Games where participation was limited to Greeks.
Even before Alexander I, the Macedonians traced their ancestry to Argos, and many of their kings used the head of Herakles - the quintessential Greek hero - on their coins.
Euripides – who died and was buried in Macedonia– wrote his play Archelaos in honor of the great-uncle of Alexander, and in Greek. While in Macedonia, Euripides also wrote the Bacchai, again in Greek. Presumably the Macedonian audience could understand what he wrote and what they heard.
Alexander’s father, Philip, won several equestrian victories at Olympia and Delphi, the two most Hellenic of all the sanctuaries in ancient Greece where non-Greeks were not allowed to compete. Even more significantly, Philip was appointed to conduct the Pythian Games at Delphi in 346 B.C. In other words, Alexander the Great’s father and his ancestors were thoroughly Greek. Greek was the language used by Demosthenes and his delegation from Athens when they paid visits to Philip, also in 346 B.C.
Another northern Greek, Aristotle, went off to study for nearly 20 years in the Academy of Plato. Aristotle subsequently returned to Macedonia and became the tutor of Alexander III. They used Greek in their classroom which can still be seen near Naoussa in Macedonia.
Alexander carried with him throughout his conquests Aristotle’s edition of Homer’s Iliad. Alexander also spread Greek language and culture throughout his empire, founding cities and establishing centers of learning. Hence inscriptions concerning such typical Greek institutions as the gymnasium are found as far away as Afghanistan. They are all written in Greek.
The questions follow: Why was Greek the lingua franca all over Alexander’s empire if he was a “Macedonian”? Why was the New Testament, for example, written in Greek?
The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later. This brings us back to the geographic area known in antiquity as Paionia. Why would the people who live there now call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Why would they abduct a completely Greek figure and make him their national hero?
The ancient Paionians may or may not have been Greek, but they certainly became Greekish, and they were never Slavs. They were also not Macedonians. Ancient Paionia was a part of the Macedonian Empire. So were Ionia and Syria and Palestine and Egypt and Mesopotamia and Babylonia and Bactria and many more. They may thus have become “Macedonian” temporarily, but none was ever “Macedonia”. The theft of Philip and Alexander by a land that was never Macedonia cannot be justified.
The traditions of ancient Paionia could be adopted by the current residents of that geographical area with considerable justification. But the extension of the geographic term “Macedonia” to cover southern Yugoslavia cannot. Even in the late 19th century, this misuse implied unhealthy territorial aspirations.
The same motivation is to be seen in school maps that show the pseudo-greater Macedonia, stretching from Skopje to Mt. Olympus and labeled in Slavic. The same map and its claims are in calendars, bumper stickers, bank notes, etc., that have been circulating in the new state ever since it declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. Why would a poor land-locked new state attempt such historical nonsense? Why would it brazenly mock and provoke its neighbor?
However one might like to characterize such behavior, it is clearly not a force for historical accuracy, nor for stability in the Balkans. It is sad that the United States of America has abetted and encouraged such behavior.
We call upon you, Mr. President, to help - in whatever ways you deem appropriate - the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated.
http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html
I am accused of hating Greeks. I don’t. I greatly admire the Greek resistence to the fascists. I think the Greeks in Turkey (there are some left) get a bad time. I feel on balance that the Greeks in Cyprus got treated badly by the Turkish occupation forces.I would like to see a just settlement in Cyprus.
But I do hate Greek, Turkish, Macedonian, Albanian and Bulgariann chauvenists who use illtreatment of their fellow nationals in other countries as an excuse to put the boot into their own minoritioes. I am an utopian and proud of it. If periodic nightmares are to be stopped we need respect for all minorities and the bes place for any democrat to do this is at home.There is furthermore a real danger of wars if scumbag politicians whip up ethnic hatred as a blid to get off the hook for their rip off mismanagement of their economies.The Greek and Turk rightwingers would like NATO to assist them in a war. Luckily it does not suit NATOt I worry that a Georgian type of thing might happen
So in Greece respect the Moslem and Albanian minorities. In Macedonia end restrictions on your Albanian neighbours, In Albania stop hassling your Greek friends in Northern Epirus. In Bulgaria end the restrictions on the Moslem minprity and in Turkey end the discrinmination of Armenians, Greeks, Kurds etc.
Have I left anyonme out. The only ones who will hate me back are whether you like it or not those who justify waht happened which triggered this post.
Oh I don’t much care what Alexander spoke, it is real living people I worry about not revenge for dead generations on any side or some such bullshit.
My dear friend Jim Monaghan, this is all we are also asking the other neighbours, just let us be what we feel we are and let our people in your country have the basic human rights… not more…
You will never hear the words that you can hear in this parade from the mouth of the Macedonian soldiers, not even for the Albanians with which we had a military conflict in 2001…
I hope that “Likethestate” and other extreme nationalist can change their view and I too am a bit utopian when I say let’s look in to the future and lead a life, not fight wars for the 2 millennia old past…
@Likethestate
please google “macedonians in greece”, “macedonians in bulgaria” and “macedonians in albania” and since most of your quotes are from wikipedia, open the links and read slowly…
O and how do you explain the http://www.florina.org/
POLITICAL PARTY OF THE MACEDONIAN MINORITY IN GREECE….
how do you explain that?
how do you explain the exodus, actually why it happened?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Greek_Civil_War
http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=mk&q=exodus+of+the+macedonian+from+greece&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=C6SzS8TwCI6rsAaL–C7AQ&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCEQqwQwAw#
and once more on the Macedonian minority in Greece…
FROM YOUR BELOVED WIKIPEDIA:
Minority populations
For more details on this topic, see Minorities in Greece.
The exact size of the linguistic and ethnic minority groups of Macedonia is officially unknown, as Greece has not conducted a census on the question of mother tongue since 1951. The main minority groups in Macedonia are:
[edit] Slavic-speakers
Distribution of the Slavic Macedonian language in the Florina Prefecture and Aridaia regions (1993)
Main article: Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia
See also: Slavic dialects of Greece
Slavic-speakers are concentrated in the Florina, Kastoria, Edessa, Giannitsa, Ptolemaida and Naousa regions. Their dialects are linguistically classified variously either as Macedonian or Bulgarian, depending on the region and on political orientation. The exact number of the minority is difficult to know, together with its members’ choice of ethnic identification, is difficult to ascertain; most maximum estimates range around 100,000–120,000. The Greek branch of the former International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights has estimated that those of an ethnic Macedonian national conscienceness number between 10,000–30,000
please answer the simple questions if you can… not talking history, since our views on history will never be the same…. let’s talk today now…
@Jim Monaghan
Reading your last post You seem good intention and you may not mean it but I mean it sincerely when I suggest you do have prejudices against Greeks. Greece has BY FAR the best human rights record in a tough region-over an extended period I might add. For instance, the Greek government immediately spoke out against the idiot soldiers from above, apologized to respective governments/peoples involved, suspended the officer in charge, and launched an immediate investigation)
Yet all your focus and energy has been spent mostly criticizing Greeks and you didn’t say a peep about how FYROM harasses Macedonians (and all Greeks for that matter)?
You see you are not neutral in the dispute. You’ve unconsciously picked FYROM to be the only “Macedonians” and ignore there are literally millions of people in Greece that call themselves a flat Macedonians. Whether one attaches the word “ethnic” or “Greek” or not does the fact that is their identity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Macedonians
I don’t suppose if people in Northern Ireland started to try and annex parts of southern Ireland to England… using “I’m Irish” as a tool… you’d like that. (think back to IRA days) How would you feel If I started to refer to them as the ONLY Irish and completely ignored their hostile behavior?
Some westerners (including Greeks, Irish, Americans, German, etc..) think that if they are not unfairly overly critical to typical targets (e.g. blacks, jews,and I’d argue muslims these days too)… that somehow frees them to show prejudice towards others. Racism and prejudice happens in everyone country… including against Irish.. and Greeks. By you being overly self-righteous against Greeks you were in fact demonstrating your own prejudices and stereotypes because your views do not represent the reality of Greece. Greece may have some quirky laws and has flaws too but if you visit it you’ll discover it is a very free country.
This is what really bugs me about this name dispute. Everyone keeps talking about the identity right of “Macedonians”… as if protecting the identity rights of Macedonians (and all Greeks) don’t count. They bury their heads in the sand and claim its just a petty dispute over a name….
…when they can see that FYROM is openly promoting irredentist state propaganda using the name as fuel.
(e.g . the current PM of FYROM laying a wreath in front of a map that includes 1/3 of Greek territory annexed to his)
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7110/megalhmakedoniaik7.jpg
@miodrag
I agree there are Macedonians in Greece… there are 2.5 million of them who’s identity you former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarian are trying to step on to match your state promoted myths as yourselves as “ancient Macedonians”. I fully support you finding an identity for yourselves but it can not come by usurping the identity of your neighbors or at risk of their territorial integrity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Macedonians
“The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made. ”
(Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 and ambassador to the United Nations from 1993 to 1997, in an interview to FYROMian newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)
“To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[…] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[…] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[…]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[…]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[…]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[…]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[…] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ” (Ljubco Georgievski, ex-Prime Minister of FYROM, FYROM A1 TV June 2009) http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI
@miodrag
I would note once again you could not produce census evidence of “Ethnic Macedonians” prior to the 20th century.
Have you ceded the point that “ethnic Macedonians” is an entirely modern creation comprised of mostly former Bulgarians and a few serbs (and possibly a few communist Greeks that were booted from Greece during the Greek civil war).
Or do you wish to continue to try and build a narrative of yourselves as “ancient Macedonians” for the sake of FYROM state propaganda?
Definitely even here the one who cames from the balkans wants that others to know where is he from. What a fucking mentality? But you Jim Morghan are the unique who is realistic here even that you too should learn some more things for the balkans. You know look for example just the way how speak some of our friends here. Miodrag says in the post 60 “not even with albanians with which we have a military conflict”, so as if albanians are the most problematic people of the region. He forget to say that they didn’t have a military conflict with “albanians” but with macedonian citizens who speak albanian and all this inside borders of Macedonia. Can we call this a conflict? A governement which sends the military (the little one) against his own people who kill unarmed men to the check-points is not a conflict is called ethnic cleansing for them who don’t know. This is the main carasteristic of slavs. The problem is that serbs greeks and others have undertsood that the time of albanians is coming so is better not to fuck any more with them. All these so-called arguments found in Wikipedia which is a bull shit go according each one’s appetite. Everybody suddenly is a scientist a historic searcher or anthropologist. The Greece’s apologise isn’t an self conscious act by the greek governenment but it is dictated by the circumstances. If Greece hadn’t been in the actual situation, i am not sure that greek governenment would apologise. I am telling this because the other times they haven’t apologise so………
@Alban
“If Greece hadn’t been in the actual situation, i am not sure that greek governenment would apologise. I am telling this because the other times they haven’t apologise so………”
That’s not fair. You have every right to be mad at those soldiers. You have ZERO right to be mad at all Greeks for them. That’s the Balkan mentality.
@alban
Let me show how nationalist rhetoric works. You became “offended” at all Greeks because some Greek soldiers were acticting like idiots. Now you are a victim and constantly “persecuted” by Greeks through history.
Fine. Then lets me look back through history and see how Albanians have treated Greeks. In that history I find 4 UN resolutions in the mind-20th century denoucing our communist neighbors (including Albania) for assisting in actrocities in the civil war (Greeks fighting Greek communists and communists citizens from our neighbourings state) 120, 000 Greeks DIED fighting to protect both our borders and our freedom from communist dictatorship.
(UN General Assembly Resolution 193, 1948)
http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/3/ares3.htm
(UN General Assembly Resolution 288, 1949)
http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/4/ares4.htm
(UN General Assembly Resolution 382 (V Section C), 1950)
http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/5/ares5.htm
(UN General Assembly Resolution 618, 1952)
http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/7/ares7.htm
Now I can point fingers at you and say “oh the Albanians are persecuting me” because some albanians were pricks to Greeks once. But that would not be fair to you. YOU are not responsible for those Albanian’s behavior towards Greeks and I would be an ass to try and turn myself into a “victim” and you a “persecutor” over the issue.
The same is true of you in this instance. Please don’t try and make all Greeks the bad guys like FYROM do (because we won’t recognize them until this name dispute is resolved).
——————–
“We are Bulgarians, more Bulgarians than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria themselves.”[…]’And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians” (FYROM national Icon Kste Misirkov)
http://www.misirkov.org/kpm_zmr_eng.htm
@Likethestate
my last reply, have you read the links I sent you? all the facts there? Macedonians don’t exist? Can you read, or you only read the Greek issued facts??????
and you are trying to tell Alban “That’s not fair.”
Your comment about the Macedonian Political Party in Greece is the best way to show how you treat your own minorities…. they are not what they say they are… they are what YOU WANT THEM TO BE, right? Macedonians in Greece have no right to say they are Macedonians, because of the repression… I know stories from people in the Greek Civil War were Macedonians were skinned alive for claiming that they are Macedonians, all of a sudden you have 2.5 Macedonians there that speak Greek>???? where are the facts? you have ABCDAR issued in greece which is Macedonian Language book [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abecedar] and here it says….
The Abecedar was a school book first published in Athens, Greece in 1925… The Abecedar has been republished twice… In 2006, an edition was published in Thessaloníki on the initiative of the ethnic Macedonian political party Rainbow.
Shame on you and on your Military and the Government… there are too many facts that you can’t annulate, sorry mate, you have done the biggest genocide in Europe after the WWII and you are doing anything in your power to hide it…
@ Alban, sorry mate if I have offended you in any way, it was not my intention, I first wrote Albanian minority in Macedonia, but actually most of the people in 2001 conflict were coming from Kosovo, so I had to use the term Albanians, AND THE POINT WAS that even when we were practically at WAR, we weren’t shouting anything about the people… the greek soldiers in this video are not shouting against Macedonian Army or Albanian Army, Soldiers or Police, they are shouting about the Macedonian and Albanian People in general… that is the sad part. btw I have nothing against albanians I lived in Tirana for ? year and a half, I loved it there, what I have strongly AGAINST are the NATIONALIST AND EXTREMISTS, people that like to have a Great Albania, Great Macedonia, Great Serbia, Great Greece (which unfortunately they already have :))) etc…
Once again the last fact… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Bucharest_%281913%29
READ JUST THE TITLES if you don’t have time…
Serbia’s gain in territory, Greece’s gain in territory, Bulgaria’s gain in territory… what territory did they gain????
MACEDONIA was split…
Look at the map [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Balkan_Wars_Boundaries.jpg] you see where GREECE ends in the top map? that where it has always ended at the mount Olympus, North of that (said by Greek historians) lived pagan tribes that did not believe in Zeus and the Greek Gods… north of Mount Olympus was Macedonia…
I don’t claim we should go back there and fight a war for territory, I say that you Greek people should leave the Macedonian people alone… we have all the rights to what is our history and tradition.
@miodrag
‘ve already said 2.5 million Macedonians in Greece exist. What you can’t stand is that we don’t recognize the 10-30K FYROM nationalists living in Greece as “Macedonians”. Boo hoo. Just like the holocaust. Oh give me a break. I
Again… I’d note you were unable to produce a single census in the 19th century showing the existence of ethnic Macedonians in the region (whereas I can produce plenty of census data showing Greeks and ethnic Bulgarians in Macedonia region… and not a single “ethnic Macedonian”)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Statistical_data
Even some of your own politicians admit FYROM nationalists are spreading myths. For instance, what did your own former ELECTED Prime Minister mean when he recently suggesting FYROM nationalists are spreading “a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths” in media? (feel free to watch the video)
“To everyone of us it is clear that this entire thesis, this entire thesis for ethnogenesis from Macedonians, it isn’t so. Ancient Macedonians until today is founded on a series of mystifications and semi-historical truths which are emitted from Republic of Macedonia and that by using and abusing the media.[…] “Why do Skopjans not ask how much Dardanian blood there is in them[..] how much Thracian blood there is in them[…] how much Illyrian blood there is in them[…]how much Paeonian blood there is in them.[…]I do not see anyone of us get into a fight over the amount of Paeonian blood in us, or God forbid, Dardinian one?[…]Ancient Macedonia does not match with today’s Macedonia at all.[…]Ancient Macedonia, we must clarify it once, is literally in entirety in today’s Greece.[…] If we are looking at ethnogenesis then we should open at another place. Therefore we should discuss how much we are Paeoneans. ” (Ljubco Georgievski, ex-Prime Minister of FYROM, FYROM A1 TV June 2009) http://www.youtube.com/user/Srbolog#play/uploads/1/-HvKPiLYZCI
And are you accusing the US Government of attempted genocide in the 1940s? I say this because if “ethnic Macedonians” existed at that time (rather than Bulgarians that had been “recognized” as “Macedonians” by the communists) then logically speaking the were complicite in ethnic cleansing. (since they supplied Greeks both with weapons to fight IMRO agents in Greece AND flattly denied “ethnic Macedonians” existed.
“This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”
(U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram - 868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d
This is not new. Greeks are known around the world for their disgust of foreigners. Tourists come all around the world to visit the worlds first democracy, the birth of civilization but they are amazed, baffled of what they experience, the people aspect of Greece. As a tourist I have traveled in lots of places but I will always remember Greece, not of their rich history but for they lack of hospitality and rudeness. I had a week to stay but I was so unhappy by my stay there, took a bus to Bulgaria and stayed in the beautiful Sofia.
Regarding the statements made by the Countries armed forces one thing I’d like to express: Racism is disease, like a disease it rots the mind. When you say racist words, or acts, do you know who suffers more, you.. The person your hating is not aware of your hatred so you gain nothing from your racism, only misery in your part. End segregation in Greek schools. Allow minorities to blend in with the population and by doing so you learn more about one another, you learn of their culture, language and think for the first time one your own that “Hmm, they are not my enemy, they are my friend”. Love and peace.
“Greeks are known around the world for their disgust of foreigners.”
And then you condemn Greek racism. Not all Greeks or anyone else is rude.
The Bulgarian Gov. discriminates against ther Moslem minority. Many of the demands you make of Greece which are quite right could and shouldequally be made against their neighbours.
The tragedy is the failure of so many states to meve away from an ethnic based idea of the nation to a citizen based concept.I am appaled by the discussion of DNA and other blood based stuff in some of the posts. I am Irish and to me it is a cultural concept. I ahve nno problems with having fellow Irish citizens whose ancestors whether a long time ago or recently came form other places.I don’t care what their religion or lack of one is.
I have to say it but what happened to the Roma in Ireland. If your focusing in one point about racism, wipe off hatred in your region first and then mingle in their affairs.
“And then you condemn Greek racism”. Is it racism to say that “In paris the waiters get angry when you tell them to get something for you” or if I say that Dumblin is such a boring place. I’m only writing what I saw. Thats not racism….Anyways.
It is obvious that I was mistaken to write here, seeing from the fact that only the positive arguments are acceptable.
@Trim
“This is not new. Greeks are known around the world for their disgust of foreigners. ”
You like to lecture about “greeks” but your very self-righteous attitude is littered with prejudices and stereotypes. Like most Irish, most Greeks have no imaginary “disgust for foreigners” as you claim. Greek culture is such that it is geared heavily around political discourse. If any stereotype is to be found is that Greeks are critical about everything and everyone-including themselves (which is easily witnessed by weeks of rioting anti-Greek government by anarchists and communists.
“As a tourist I have traveled in lots of places but I will always remember Greece, not of their rich history but for they lack of hospitality and rudeness.”
Well then since you bad experience with a few rude people you bumped into clearly that’s enough of a sample to indicate Greeks hate everyone. Truly rational thinking.
“Racism is disease, like a disease it rots the mind. When you say racist words, or acts, do you know who suffers more, you.. The person your hating is not aware of your hatred so you gain nothing from your racism, only misery in your part.”
Indeed … and you seem to be racist towards Greeks.
“And segregation in Greek schools. Allow minorities to blend in with the population and by doing so you learn more about one another, you learn of their culture, language and think for the first time one your own that “Hmm, they are not my enemy, they are my friend”.
All children, including minorities, go to the same Greek schools dear Trim, You have serious problems with stererotyping Greeks,
“Love and peace.”
I recommend you start showing “love” in your own attitude because when you demonize another people the way you just did than I’d say its you that has a problem with hate.
Even I know FYROM are people. I just disagree with their government’s choice of names because through it they are trying to claim 1/3 of Greece. If you think its “petty” or hateful… then you are the petty and hateful man. No nation on earth would tolerate such an aggressive attitude by a neighboring state. What of the human rights of the MILLIONS of Macedonians that are having their identity stripped from them by the former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians of FYROM? What of our right to be treating with human dignity?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Macedonians
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7110/megalhmakedoniaik7.jpg
“The creation of the “Macedonian” nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.
(Denko Maleski, Minister of foreign affairs of the FYROM from 1991 to 1993 and ambassador to the United Nations from 1993 to 1997, in an interview to FYROM newspaper Utrinski Vesnik October 16, 2006)
@Jim Monaghan
@I am appaled by the discussion of DNA and other blood based stuff in some of the posts.
And if you notice… its FYROM nationalists that try to bring up “blood”. Since they cannot produce evidence of a “ethnic Macedonian” identity for the last 1500 years… their government’s official basis for their new identity is essentially the idea they “mixed” with a few regional Macedonians when they moved into the region- ergo they are the “true” Macedonians”. (this is akin to Turks rebranding themselves “ethnic Greeks” since Asia Minor used to have millions of Greeks in it)
What the FYROM government “forget” to mention is that when they invaded the region all the local Macedonians were speaking GREEK (as were the neighbouring Byzantine state whose lands they invaded)
1400 years latter FYROM has decided it is no longer hip enough to be Slavic so they are slowly wiping out records of their own Bulgarian heritage and trying to portray themselves as “ancient Macedonians”. If they cared less about their pseudo-scientific claims of a “blood” relationship and more about preserving actual Macedonian culture and language….. the would start by speaking the language ancient Macedonians spread all the way to India…. Greek. Instead they have a phobia of Greek and rebrand a former Bulgarian dialect into the “Macedonian language”
Then Trim lectures Greeks…
(FYROM before recognition as “Republic of Macedonia”)
‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
(FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)
‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)
“We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4
(FYROM after recognition)
“In the peak-time slot every Saturday evening on TV in Skopje, Atanas Pcelarski explains the meaning of words from the world of Classical Antiquity in modern Macedonian”
“Macedonia is the source of the world. Languages, themes about God, religion, the legal system, they all stem from Macedonia,” he declares. The Macedonia of Classical Antiquity and the modern republic are one and the same.
It is the not just the media that pushes the theme of Macedonia’s Classical identity. Monuments to Classical heroes are springing up in town after town. The capital, Skopje, is to erect a 22-metre-tall monument to Alexander next year. His statue already crowns the centre of Prilep.
“In a few months time, a statue of Alexander’s father, Philip the Second, will dominate the main square in Bitola. The main highway to the Greek border has been renamed “Alexander of Macedon”, while the main sports stadium in Skopje has been renamed after Philip.
Official data show the authorities are paying thousands of people to work on archaeological projects. The director of the Bureau for Protection of Cultural Heritage, archaeologist Pasko Kuzman, says their work will prove that today’s Macedonians descend from the Macedonians of Classical Antiquity – not from the Slavs who migrated into the Balkans from the 5th-century onwards.
www.b92.net/eng/insight/opinions.php?nav_id=63275
“Macedonia can only defend its name, if it proves that the Macedonian nation has Classical Antique and
“In an interview in his office, sitting next to a wall-size copy of a 13th-century icon of Alexander, Kuzman
insisted that Greece had stolen the conqueror’s legacy from Macedonia, not the other way around.”
(Pasko Kuzman current head of government’s cultural/archeology department in FYROM)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/27/AR2009072702653_2.html
——–
Then an endless number of self-righteous people lecture Greeks and bizarrely claim to us this is just a petty dispute over a name… when there is overwhelming evidence that its not just about a name. Despite what they say officially, FYROM is clearly using the name for irredentist purposes (to slowly claim both Greek Macedonian history and Macedonia Greece territory)
I’m not racist…but I wont recommend Greece as a travel destination to anyone. Ill even will write that in my blog, I’m a critic, this is what I do.
Please refrain from the use of FYOM, its actually Republic of Macedonia. Who is the racist there?
Didn’t someone tell you…”YOU NEVER EVER USE WIKIPEDIA AS A SOURCE” grow up man.Visit a library, you will learn something. I wrote an article on Wikipedia, and it appalls me that one should use that as a source.
“FREE NORTHERN IRELAND FROM THE IRISH” practical joke here. Thought be funny.
@trim
you state “I’m not racist:
Sure you are. You clearly hate Greeks, (which is easily demonstrated by your constant negative stereotypes of Greeks and completely avoidance of facts around FYROM’s behavior and history)
“Please refrain from the use of FYOM, its actually Republic of Macedonia. Who is the racist there?”
Right. Because I don’t recognize FYROM, a completely different nation, as the “Republic of Macedonia” then I am a “racist’ . More Trim “logic”. Seriously have you ever opened up a dictionary to look at what the word racism even means?
According to your reasoning of “non-recognition= racism” then most of the world seems to be racist. For instance, most nations (including most likely your own i might add) do not officially recognize the Republic of Taiwan. (since they fear China more than they claim to support some alleged absolute right to recognition)
I would note even FYROM originally recognized Taiwan (and Taiwan did the same to FYROM)…. then WITHDREW recognition of Taiwan when they thought it was in their national interests to do so. Some might call that hypocrisy no?
http://www.atimes.com/china/CG11Ad02.html
Trim, you not only have prejudices against Greeks, but you seem to have severe prejudices against them.-which even Jim noted who’s been highly critical of Greece on this thread (which I appreciate Jim… which shows you understand even if we sometimes disagree with some policy in some other nation its important not to demonize an entire people)
Some people who claim think they aren’t racist because they are tolerant towards black people, or Jews, or other visiable minorities. (typical targets in a a mostly white west)
They’ll point in moral outrage at other countries as being racist then brush over in their minds very similar incidents that occured in their own nations. The then make up imaginary statistics in their mind (like you do Trim), that they then use it as “proof”" more alleged racism occurs in one nation over another.
Racism deals with race… not political disagreements. Even the Muslim countries aren’t generally racists. (their problem is they theocracies not that they don’t tolerate plenty of ethnic groups that practice Islam)
Lets get this straight racism once and for all. Racism can happen against any ethnic group on earth. It can occur against FYROM nationalists (like those shameful Greek soldiers)… and it can occur against Greeks (as you dear Trim appear prejudiced against Greeks vis-a-vis your constant negative stereotypes of Greeks)
@Jim Monaghan
You write: “I am Irish and to me it is a cultural concept. I have no problems with having fellow Irish citizens whose ancestors whether a long time ago or recently came form other places.”
This is exactly how most Greeks feel (including Macedonian ones). We are trying to preserve our language and culture-which isn’t Slavic anymore than yours is. (not that there is nothing wrong with Slavic culture but I don’t imagine Poles would appreciate it if their country was annexed to Germany)
Someone wanting to integrate into Greece is one thing. FYROM nationalists living in Macedonia Greece on the other hand (and some Turks who have seven times Greece’s population)… use “recognition” as a tool towards future land claims (and believe me its not Greeks being paranoid. This is the way this part of the world still works at the moment)
Those that want to honestly understand this dispute, need to imagine how they would react if England started producing map after map of “united Ireland”…. annexed to neighboring England (and lets suppose the English spoke Buglarian too) . It’s not “racism” to want to protect one’s national sovereignty and identity. I would even respect that of FYROM nationalis, if they weren’t trying to usurp my own.
Until the former self-identifying Bulgarians of FYROM cut out their ancient Macedonian name games and stop portraying Macedonia Greece as “occupied”… they’ve put Greeks (especially Macedonian ones) into a corner where they’ve made it impossible for us to recognize them.
It sure is easy for other people unaffected by this to hand out someone else’s ethnic identity because its too much work for them to simply say FYROM (the neutral UN name-for those interested in being neutral) . Much much harder to take a principled stand for people in another country.
Do you not realise that by discriminating against non Greek speakers who have been there for a long time and also by giving Thracian moslems a bad time you are giving an excuse for similar acts against Greek speakers in Southern Albania and in Turkey.I cvan imagine the propaganda victory you are giving to rightwing Turkish politicians who do not want a just settlement in Cyprus and who want to drive out the remnants of the Greek population in Turkey. One injustice justifying another and so it goes on causing endless misery to poor people trying to get on with their lives.
End discrimination where ever you can and use what influence to end it as well. This is the only way to end an eternal cycle of war and revenge.
@Jim Monaghan
“Do you not realise that by discriminating against non Greek speakers who have been there for a long time and also by giving Thracian moslems a bad time you are giving an excuse for similar acts against Greek speakers in Southern Albania and in Turkey.”
You think that nearby Muslim countries don’t discriminate against Greeks (and virtually all non-Muslims) regardless whatever policy you think Greece has that’s discriminatory? Did you know in Saudi Arabia there is not a single church? (and I say this as someone who’s not religious in the least)
It must very easy for your in the North Atlantic far far away from endless streams of boat people from 3rd world countries to criticize. Greece (pop10) at any one time has over a million illegals in its country.
So instead of lecturing from your Ivory tower, is there anything whatsoever stopping you from petitioning the Irish government to have Greece (and countries like Spain and Italy) ship them off to Ireland. (because we sure can’t handle them all and have to make tough decisions in a rough neighbourhood). Come on Jim. Are you some kind of racist for not wanting a million plus people from third world countries coming to Ireland illegally?
I think Greece could learn a lot from Ireland but I would also point out for all Greece imperfections .. it is ranked substantially higher than FYROM in most quality of life and human rights indexes.
e,g,
http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
And yet again you still haven’t said a peep about FYROM’s behavior towards Macedonians in Greece. (since FYROM’s former self-identifying Bulgarians are now claiming to be “ancient Macedonians”… and therefore imply Macedonia Greece as occupied)
(FYROM ten years ago before people “recognized them”)
‘We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great.’
(FYROM’S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka in speech to US representatives in Washington on January 22 1999)
‘We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.’(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov in interview to Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)
“We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM’s first President to Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4
(and what about the right to have our own identity protected?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Macedonians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_scholars_in_the_Renaissance
Macedonian Greeks
@Jim Monaghan
And incidentally i found some or wording very telling.
“Do you not realise that by discriminating against non Greek speakers who have been there for a long time and also by giving Thracian moslems a bad time you are giving an excuse for similar acts against Greek speakers in Southern Albania and in Turkey”
Your attempt to classify Greeks as only “greek speakers” is akin to me attempting to classify Irish as just “english speakers”.
I mean come on what the difference between all you “english speakers” any how? Your history, cultural and identity are all pretty much the same right? Can’t you just all get along and eliminate your national borders and identities? You Irish some kind of racists because you won’t let tens of millions of your fellow hungry “english speakers” from 3rd world nations immigrate to Ireland all at once? (which your government could do if it wished tomorrow).
You also write somewhere above you are “for a Socialist Balkan federation ….. ”
Yes. And I am for an Ireland completely dissolving its identity into a Socialist federation that includes India , Cameroon, the UK, Madagascar, Greenland, Malta, Pakistan, Philippines and Uganda. And if you don’t agree with me and wish to preserve Ireland…. well then you clearly must be a racist.
Do you grasp how extremely offensive your above statement was Jim? (and why although I think you might mean well I don’t think you’ve carefully examined your own views), I believe in human rights too. I want Greeks to integrate minorities too. But it has to be via their integration into Greece as hyphenated Greeks not as some sort of legal invasion intended to wipe out all traces of Greek culture. (as FYROM nationalists are trying to do with “Macedonia” word games)
Give up your own national identity if you wish but you have absolutely no right whatsoever to suggest Macedonians should commit ethnic suppuku for the former self-identifying Bulgarians of FYROM.
(btw - I have no issue with Ireland whatsover. From what I know, its a great country. My examples are just intended to show you how you sound to me)
I did not say non Greek speakers were noit Greek citizens entitled to full citizenship and the right to be free from discrimination.. The problem is that successive Greek governments use racism and relkigious bigotry to divert attention from their own failings.
Alas, similar governments in the area do teh same. I am opposed to any kinds of discrimination in Ireland. And, alas, do not see the Irish as being in many ways any better. The struggle for civil rights is unending as it is easy for the stiupid to target the innocent for all sorts of problems. The Greek and Irish economic disaster has been caused by our political and other elites. We musy be careful that they they are not allowed to divert attention from this.
Oh yes, I would love a world without borders and wars.
Jim wrote:” “I did not say non Greek speakers were not Greek citizens entitled to full citizenship and the right to be free from discrimination.. The problem is that successive Greek governments use racism and relkigious bigotry to divert attention from their own failings.”
And I did not say “english speakers” are not “Irish citizens” either.
So then why then don’t you as an “english speaker” who’s an “Irish citizen” actively pursue completely desolving Ireland and join into a “Socialist Federation” with Lithuania, Mongolia, Uganda, England, and Peru? What’s the difference between all of you right? Seems to me you are pointing fingers at other people’s nations when even your own country doesn’t conform to your own claimed socialist utopia? Rather hypocritical no?
If anything like most European countries Greece tends to be far better with rights than less developed nations. About the only generalization you’ve made about Greeks that I would agree with is that the Greek orthodox religion has too much control of Greek politics (much like the Vatican in Italy but less so than Israel, some Latin American countries and practically any Muslim nation)
I would also recommend that rather than be self-righteous about Greece… why don’t you instead encourage “english speakers” in your “english speaking” region to accept some of the endless stream of illegal immigrants EU countries like Greece, Italy and Spain face annually? (because they border poor and developing nations-rather than say border the Atlantic ocean and first world nations)
If you bothered to check dear Jim you’ll discover nearly 95% of your population considers itself ethnically Irish… which is a HIGHER number than Greece.
So why are their virtually no black people, Arabs, Hispanics, and non-Christians to be found in Ireland? Why is your government keeping virtually all visible minorities and people of other faiths from immigrating to Ireland? (you could find millions virtually overnight from nations in south America, the middle east, Asia, and Africa)
You never found it an rather odd “coincidence” that virtually everyone around you is a white christian? Does Ireland “use racism and religions bigotry” against other nations to divert attention from its own failings?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Ethnic_groups
And again I would note you have said absolutely nothing about the former self-identifying Bulgarians of FYROM’s treatment of our own Macedonian identity rights (not to mention how they deal with the rest of Greeks, Bulgarians, Roma, and others in their own country). Why are you discriminating against 2.5 million Macedonians and pretend they don’t exist or have the right to have their own identity protected?
In short, you are a stereotypical far leftist that likes to self-righteous preach his personal views about “what the vague term “human rights” should represent… in other people’s nations… then basically does squat in his daily life to improve them in his own. When I see at least 50% of the Irish population as visible minorities (whites only represent less than 20% of the world’s population) and people of other faiths then please feel free to lecture Greece.
(btw- no offense intended to any other Irish reading this. I think Ireland is a great country. Jim thinks he can behave in a prejudicial fashion towards Greeks and not get a taste of his own racist medicine back)
“Oh yes, I would love a world without borders and wars.”
I agree we should create a world without wars and extreme nationalism is evil.. However, a world without borders is not only a communist utopian fantasy but those that persue such extreme anti-nationalistic positions are equally pursuing evil. Not everyone wants to erase their identity to some communist Borg collective people like you thinks they should. People in other nations have every right to keep their individuality and unique national flavours (and no one is stopping you from giving up your own identity if you wish)
Nations are a fundamental units of living in a civilized world. If American colonies united into the US… it is still a nation that will face occasionally friction with other competing nations. If the EU tomorrow united into a single nation.. it would still be a nation and face occasional friction with other nations. If the world had a global government….. there would still be administrative district that effectively amounted to competing nations (as well as ethnic groups within it)
Your problem is you’ve bought into Marxian philosophy. If I were Irish, I’d fear people like you because left to the hands of people such as you there would be no Ireland. I know your extreme leftist types. More than half the Greek population sounds exactly like you (which in my opinion is what lead to Greece’s current financial meltdown).
Far leftists like to share… everyone else’s stuff earned through their own hard work and talent. However, when it comes times to sharing their own things..well typically they tend to demonstrate selective observational skills. Don’t believe me? Is anything stopping you from giving away all your possessions to people much poorer than you? There are many hungry as we speak that you could feed by selling your things to a pawn shop tomorrow and sending then a cheque.
No?
You like having your computer to harass people in other countries with your views on “human rights”? You like your mobile phone? You like living in a home rather than a wooden box? You like having different cloths in your closet? So wat happened to your Socialist utopian values? Why don’t you practice what you preach?
Do you know while you self-righteously rant for “Socialist Federations” some people consider any taxation whatsoever as morally equivalent to theft dear Jim? That through the power of state force “the many” are taking money from those that earned it through voluntarily transactions and putting it in their own pockets? Not very sporting when one looks at it that way eh?
I don’t subscribe to either extreme of the poliical spectrum myself because both tend to deal with a priori moral absolutes rather than observation. Representative democracies based on moderate mix of socialist and capitalist principles have worked well for us.
What worries me is that something stupid like the Georgian affair will happen where a warmongering regime will start a fight it cannot win with its neighbours hoping the rest of us will get involved.The sort of rhetoric against minorities and neighbouring countries can lead to that.
The last phrase(’worked out well”) is interesting in the current economic collapse where small countries like Greece and its neighbours as well as Ireland hop to the German rulingclass tune.
Toleration and civil rights( including language rights and respect for minority religions and lack of religions) are not utopian but the only guarantee in the long run of peace.
I do not have it to hand but Salonika according to one survey was very ethnically diverse before 1914.
What I fear is another round of ethnic cleansing as fear drives nations to “purify” themselves of minorities. Armenians pre 1914 and during the WW1 and both Greeks and Turks after 1918 suffered greatly with this. Since then we have had many more examples.
Jim wrote:”The last phrase(’worked out well”) is interesting in the current economic collapse where small countries like Greece and its neighbours as well as Ireland hop to the German rulingclass tune.”
Yes, despite ups and downs, it has worked well. In fact, it has worked extremely well. Most westerners live far far more comfortable lives (and longer and with more opportunity) than people from any other point in human history. You, like many on the far left (and far right I might add) are just extremely ungrateful for what you have.
JIim wrote: “Toleration and civil rights( including language rights and respect for minority religions and lack of religions) are not utopian but the only guarantee in the long run of peace.:”
I agree. However, you in your “english speaking” almost completely “white christian” region in the north Atlantic (neighboring first world nations very similar to you) self-righteously think you stand on high moral ground or the issues are as simple as just letting people flow into a country. In certain hostile regions of the world (where borders have changed often), any nation that do that without some sort of controls are essentially committing national suicide. (and believe me even if Greeks did-what replaced it what still be another nation that would be no more or less nationalistic)
Jim wrote: “I do not have it to hand but Salonika according to one survey was very ethnically diverse before 1914.”
Indeed i was… and none of those ethnic groups were “ethnic Macedonians”. FYROM nationalist on balance used to call themselves “ethnic Bulgarians” back then (but one trying to form a “Macedonian” state… at the expense of Greeks, Serbs, Turks, Albanians, and others living there)
Of course you’d have to dig deeper into the facts to realize that (which would make it much more evident realize who the real villains in this dispute actually are). To do that would require you put your negative stereotypes aside and just read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Statistica…
Whatever ethnic ambiguities may exist over Greek-speaking Romans/Byzantines (that considered ancient Greeks their ancestors and were the cultural inheritors of ancient Greece)…
eyewitness accounts lead most anthropologists and historians to suggest FYROM nationalists are primarily descended from former self-identifying ethnic Bulgarians from the region (and to a lessor degree other Slavs) NOT Greek-speaking ancient Macedonians (Slavic peoples entered the region a thousand years after the demise of the Hellenistic period founded by ancient Macedonians-self-identifying Greeks… and when they did the locals were speaking Greek)
(some quotes I just posted elsewhere)
“The history of the construction of a Macedonian national identity does not begin with Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. or with Saints Cyril and Methodius in the ninth century A.D. as Macedonian nationalist historians often claim. (Loring Danforth, “The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World”, Princeton Univ Press, December 1995 p.56)
“The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov’s call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians.(p.64)
“But who are the Macedonians? You will find Bulgarians and Turks who call themselves Macedonians, you find Greek Macedonians, there are Servian Macedonians, and it is possible to find Roumanian Macedonians. You will NOT, however, find a single Christian Macedonian who is not a Servian, a Bulgarian, a Greek, or a Roumanian. They all curse the Turk, and they love Macedonia. But it is Greek Macedonia, or Bulgarian Macedonia, and their eyes flame with passion, whilst their fingers seek the triggers of their guns “Pictures From The Balkans” ”
by John Foster Fraser (published in 1906), PAGE 5
“In 1878 at the time of San Stefano, the population of Macedonia was about one million. Greeks inhabited most of the coastal districts, and there were many settlement of Vlachs, Serbs and Turks: but many of the Macedonian peasants of the interior classed themselves as Bulgars.” - Balkan Background By Newman, Bernard, page 53
“The origin of the Macedonian dispute the south-east half of Slav Macedonia where the population was most nearly Bulgarian”
The New Macedonian Question (St. Antony’s) by James Pettifer, page 12
“Where an overaching identity existed among Slavs in Macedonia, it was a Bulgarian one until at least the 1860s.” (Outcast Europe - Tom Gallagher, page 47)
“And so the “Bulgarophone” villagers are no longer willing to admit they speak Bulgarian. They have coined a new term of their own accord, and henceforth, until they have got rid of it, is to be known as “Macedonian“.(Allen Upward, The East End of Europe, London 1908, pp 205)
“Because the population of Macedonia was primarily Bulgarian, it was influenced heavily by the events of 1878. It is very likely that the establishment of the greater Bulgaria envisioned by the treaty of San Stefano, and which included much of Macedonia whetted the nationalistic appetites of a substantial portion of the Bulgarian population of Macedonia.” (“Defeat in Detail: The Ottoman Army in the Balkans, 1912 By Edward J. Erickson, page 39)
“It should be remembered, to begin with, that there is NO Macedonian race, as a distinct type. Macedonians may belong to any of the races of Eastern Europe or Western Asia, as, indeed, they do. A Macedonian Bulgar is just the same as a Bulgar of Bulgaria proper…”(Arthur Douglas Howden Smith, “Fighting the Turk in the Balkans: An American’s Adventures with the Macedonian Revolutionists”, 1908, p. 4-5)
“Ever since 1878 there had been a sizeable Macedonian presence in Bulgaria…Most if not all Macedonians in Bulgaria at this period regarded themselves as ethnically Bulgarian and the refugees were a potential political lobby of considerable size.”
“Ideologies and national identities: the case of twentieth-century” by John R. Lampe, Mark Mazower 2004 page 125
In the 1990s,Macedonians speak a language codified in 1946,spoken by less than two million people, and with a very slender literature. They are members of an Orthodox Church whose authority was established by a socialist political regime in 1968.They are heirs to a 1903 revolution that until the 1940s was described by almost all sources as being Bulgarian. They are descendants from people who were called, and at times called themselves, Serbs or Bulgarians.”
“The history of the Balkan Peninsula?” 1971 by Ferdinand Schevill page 432
@jim
I would also highly recommend you put aside a priorii speculative assumptions about the history of the region… and look up the historical record e (including cold war stances by the Irish government on this issue which I imagine were very similar to the British one…. since we all struggled to defeat fascist and communist tyranny together)
Edward O’Hara (British politician).
“President Kiro Gligorov may argue that he cannot control the publications of political parties, but I believe that the adoption of the sunburst emblem of Vergina, recently discovered in Greek Macedonia on the coffin of Philip II of Macedon, the father of Alexander the Great, is a wilful act of authorisation of that claim. If hon. Members wish to empathise with the strength of feeling about that emblem, it is as though the thistle were stolen from the Scots and adopted by another country. It is an emblem, but it stirs up passions. President Gligorov has mounted an impressive propaganda campaign about that, which has deflected attention from some of the more substantial issues in that earlier dispute and, in great measure, has succeeded in casting the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia in the guise of the little victim of the big bully, Greece…
Greece has no territorial dispute with the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. It is almost unique in the Balkans in having no such territorial claims on any of its neighbours. Greece has demonstrated its desire to have policies of support and co-operation with its neighbours in that part of the world by its breakthrough in its relationship with Albania, on which both Governments deserve congratulations because thereby another potential flashpoint to the south of the Balkans was damped down. Greece is physically located in the Balkans. It wants nothing more than to achieve a similar relationship with the former Yugoslav republic, but it needs support to do so.
It is no wonder that, in matters of politics in the Balkans, Greece feels misunderstood. It cannot understand why, after it stood alone with the United Kingdom against the forces of fascism between 28 October 1940–Ohi day, as it is still called–and 27 April 1941, when Athens finally fell, its former allies now appear to be taking the part of forces against which it stood, especially when, after the second world war, it endured those further four years of civil war to hold the line against the communist advance to the Aegean. That was done for the United States and for the United Kingdom especially–the world powers of the time–and those Governments objected, in 1944, to Tito’s change of the name of Vardar Banovina. ”
(House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 May 1995, Column 602)
When or even if Macedonia became a nation is irrevelant. Nations are formed in sometimes a long period of time and sometimes over a few generations. A Macedonian nation exists, that is it. It discriminated against its Albanian minority. I hope that is at an end. I am not aware of its attitude to other minorities. I suspect not that great.
So in some ways a bit like Greece which discriminates against its minorities.Two or more wrongs do not make a right.
Harking back to a wartime alliance and expecting help if you get yourself into a war is dangerous.Rhetoric from one person in the House of Commons is a rather silly basis on which to expect anything.Countries follow their own interests however much they dress them up. EG Iraq was about oil not democracy. Any Balkan war will spread. If you expect British aid. I suggest you look at Poland. Bulgaria traditionally has always expected Russian help.The Georgian regime persuaded itself that the American would come galloping over the hill.My worry previously stated is that with a dollup of stupidity there might be a war. I am sure the Special Forces think it will be glory and medals all round.I see only misery.
I hope that
1.The various countries will end internal discrimination.
2.Sit down with their neighbours and deal with all outstanding problems.
The danger is that a Georgian type affair will arise where governments will talk themselves and their peoples into war which can only cause destruction and misery.Look North. It is still a mess with many Serbs looking forward to the next round which they hope they will win.
It is obvious from the opening argument that some Greeks ( hopefiully a small minority) have stupid ideas. I would guess that similar fools exist in most countries.Arguing that the ones across the border are worse is a fools game. The thing is to decisively win the argument against teh fools on your own turf.
Again the people of Greece have the power to change things in Greece and provide a stimulus for similar change across their borders. The democrats of Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania and Turkey have much more in common with each other that with the zenophobic monsters such as the Greek Special forces and similar scum around the region and the world.
With these last remarks I leave the field to you as this is a dialogue of the deaf.Oh and I will oppose any Irish military intervention in the area whether under the EU or the United Nations.We lost at least 60000 in WW1 where we were persuaded that we were helping smallnations like Belgium. We were then just being manipulated.
“Harking back to a wartime alliance and expecting help if you get yourself into a war is dangerous.”
It’s hardly one person that suggested “ethnci Macedonians” were mostly the creation of communists (out of mostly former ethnic Bulgarians trying to create a Macedonians state)
“This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonia “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”
The Department would appreciate any information pertinent to this subject which may come to your attention.
Department of State ”
(U.S State Department Foreign Relations Vol. VIII Washington D.C. Circular Airgram - 868.014/26 Dec. 1944)
http:// tinyurl.com/nel46d
You just don’t want to face facts because it breaks your narrative of Greeks as being the problem here… and shows people like you are the real problem (since you seemingly harbour prejudices against Macedonians… whose identity rights you completely ignore).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Macedonians
You write: “would guess that similar fools exist in most countries.”
Indeed they do. Apparently at least one such fool and anti-Greek racist exists in Ireland who likes to preach about minorities… yet gloss’s over he lives in a country populated by 95% white christian “english speakers”). Why are you racists keeping out minorities dear Jim?
(btw - no offense against anyone Irish else reading this. Just giving racist socialist Jim a taste of his own self-righteous medicine)
I am macedonian and we are never going to give up from our part.You know where it is. North of Greece.Where live many macedonians.Macedonia for real Macedonians!
A mixture of inaccuracies, fantasies and damn lies.
First, let me remind you that a US general blaimed Srebrenica on the Dutch military including gays. The US government distanced itself and the incident ended without a circus
Second, the group that allegedly shouted these(universally condemned) slogans were neither military, not did they shout them in front of the presidency or anywhere near: They were Coast guard(=police), two of their comrades had been recently murdered by Albanian druglords and their commnder has been allegedly highly decorated, among others by the swiss government for riskinghis life to rescue a swiss family from albanian pirates.
Like I said, this incident was denounced and thegovernment sacked the commander, without giving him the right to apologize.
I doubt this was directed at Albanians. It is more likely directed at widespread opposition to the government pushingthrough an extremist law that makes obtaining citizenship for immigrants a right instead of a privilege, that can and should be granted on a per case basis, as does for instance Switzerland. This basically means that one cannot refuse citizenship to people whose allegiance is to AlQueda or who may have committed crimes if they have not yet been sentenced at the highest degree(after having lost all their appeals).
As for the rest on minorities:
Nobody cares if your name is Axarlian(an Armenian name) or Cohen or anything else. And minorities, such as Armenians are very well integrated, intermarry and DO NOT WANT minority status.
Moslem(according to the treaties)/turkish minorities in Thrace: Well, Turkey has wiped out in 1955 and before all the greek minority there. The minority in Thrace is doing much better than that. In fact Greece RIGHTLY gets hammered by human rights because it allows the moslem religious leaders too many powers, including saria law, so that there have been moslem wedding with girls as young as 11 years old. All this though in the name of respecting the religious sensitivities of the moslem minority!
As for the Macedonia issue, these are just halluscinations: First, the land of fake Macedonia(I was going to use the mutually agreed name-and unpleasant to both sides, FYROM, but not if others do not) is not even in MAcedonia. The ancient name was Paeonia and it has as much relation to Macedonia as it does to Sicily, Catalunya or Scotland. Imagine Stalin naming Siberia ‘Alaska’, or Argentina one of its provinces ‘Falklands’ and that breakaway province wanting the name. Or that an asian country renames itself ‘Europe’. Or for that matter Kossovo calls itself ‘Tetovo’. Yes, we are talking that level of insanity.
Second, even if somehow fake macedonia is part of Macedonia, it is much smaller than real MAcedonia, both land and populationwise. Why on earth should a minority of ex-bulgarians who do not even live in Macedonia and have much weaker historical connection have the name refer to them and not to the more numerous, living in real Macedonia and with much stronger historical connection real Macedonians? So that we can satisfy the ultranationalism of insane people who want to rewrite history and sling some mud?
Where have you found these bullshit about albanian pirates? I think i have seen your pseudo in many albanian videos as if you don’t have other thing to do in your life but to say bullshit. Any way i am not surprised by your propaganda because look where your propaganda has sent your country to go and to ask money in Europe. As far i know you are the unique country in Europe that has done this. And i am very well-informed because today and yesterday i was to the europian parlament and to europian commission.
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