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	<title>Comments on: Official: It pays to pay fees! (with or without blacks, laptops)</title>
	<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2009/08/06/official-it-pays-to-pay-fees-with-or-without-blacks-laptops/</link>
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	<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 12:13:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Donagh</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2009/08/06/official-it-pays-to-pay-fees-with-or-without-blacks-laptops/#comment-70556</link>
		<author>Donagh</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 13:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2009/08/06/official-it-pays-to-pay-fees-with-or-without-blacks-laptops/#comment-70556</guid>
		<description>It's mildly amusing that the Irish Times have published this, and that rather than decry the fact that it illustrates the entrenched inequality and lack of social mobility in Ireland they are celebrating it (with the idea that their list is some how the 'definitive one' -- morons).  

Recently though the British Government have published a report on the lack of social mobility in the UK, and offered recommendations for changing that situation. But what it found is relevant to the situation here because of the current 'education' debate with FF politicians saying that access to third level here has 'mushroomed' in the last couple of decades. What the Irish Times survey is about is access to 'professional' education and in turn, professional jobs. 

Some of the key findings of the report &lt;a href="http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/newsroom/news_releases/2009/090721_accessprofessions.aspx" rel="nofollow"&gt;include&lt;/a&gt;:
&lt;blockquote&gt;# Tomorrow’s professional is growing up in a family that is better off than 7 out of 10 families in Britain.
# The typical doctor or lawyer of the future will today be growing up in a family better off than 5 in 6 of all families in the UK.
# The typical journalist or accountant of the future will today be growing up in a family better off than 3 in 4 of all families in the UK.
# The typical engineer or teacher of the future will today be growing up in a family better off than 2 in 3 of all families in the future.
# Over half of professional occupations such as law and finance are currently dominated by people from independent schools which are attended by just 7% of the population.  75% of judges and 45% of top civil servants were independently schooled.
# A typical professional born in 1958 came from a family that earned 17% more than the average family income; but by 1970 the family income gap between those who went on to pursue a professional career and the average family had risen to 27% &lt;b&gt;with journalism&lt;/b&gt; – along with accountancy – seeing the biggest shift to more social exclusivity. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Full report &lt;a href="http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/media/227102/fair-access.pdf" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.

It discussed in a recent &lt;a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00lv5hf#synopsis" rel="nofollow"&gt;Thinking Allowed &lt;/a&gt;show, with Richard Reeves, Director of Demos saying:
&lt;blockquote&gt; The one profession you didn't mention that is dominated by independentally schooled workers is of course journalism the only area that had increased over that time. Even among...the discussion around this is controlled by people from that background.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Topic starts at 12.05. Reeves comment is at 17.40
&lt;a href="http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/ta/ta_20090805-1704a.mp3" rel="nofollow"&gt;Thinking Allowed&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s mildly amusing that the Irish Times have published this, and that rather than decry the fact that it illustrates the entrenched inequality and lack of social mobility in Ireland they are celebrating it (with the idea that their list is some how the &#8216;definitive one&#8217; &#8212; morons).  </p>
<p>Recently though the British Government have published a report on the lack of social mobility in the UK, and offered recommendations for changing that situation. But what it found is relevant to the situation here because of the current &#8216;education&#8217; debate with FF politicians saying that access to third level here has &#8216;mushroomed&#8217; in the last couple of decades. What the Irish Times survey is about is access to &#8216;professional&#8217; education and in turn, professional jobs. </p>
<p>Some of the key findings of the report <a href="http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/newsroom/news_releases/2009/090721_accessprofessions.aspx" rel="nofollow">include</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p># Tomorrow’s professional is growing up in a family that is better off than 7 out of 10 families in Britain.<br />
# The typical doctor or lawyer of the future will today be growing up in a family better off than 5 in 6 of all families in the UK.<br />
# The typical journalist or accountant of the future will today be growing up in a family better off than 3 in 4 of all families in the UK.<br />
# The typical engineer or teacher of the future will today be growing up in a family better off than 2 in 3 of all families in the future.<br />
# Over half of professional occupations such as law and finance are currently dominated by people from independent schools which are attended by just 7% of the population.  75% of judges and 45% of top civil servants were independently schooled.<br />
# A typical professional born in 1958 came from a family that earned 17% more than the average family income; but by 1970 the family income gap between those who went on to pursue a professional career and the average family had risen to 27% <b>with journalism</b> – along with accountancy – seeing the biggest shift to more social exclusivity. </p></blockquote>
<p>Full report <a href="http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/media/227102/fair-access.pdf" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
<p>It discussed in a recent <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00lv5hf#synopsis" rel="nofollow">Thinking Allowed </a>show, with Richard Reeves, Director of Demos saying:</p>
<blockquote><p> The one profession you didn&#8217;t mention that is dominated by independentally schooled workers is of course journalism the only area that had increased over that time. Even among&#8230;the discussion around this is controlled by people from that background.</p></blockquote>
<p>Topic starts at 12.05. Reeves comment is at 17.40<br />
<a href="http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/ta/ta_20090805-1704a.mp3" rel="nofollow">Thinking Allowed</a></p>
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		<title>By: Hugh Green</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2009/08/06/official-it-pays-to-pay-fees-with-or-without-blacks-laptops/#comment-70555</link>
		<author>Hugh Green</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 13:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2009/08/06/official-it-pays-to-pay-fees-with-or-without-blacks-laptops/#comment-70555</guid>
		<description>'He was also observed': clearly, I didn't go to UCD or Trinity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;He was also observed&#8217;: clearly, I didn&#8217;t go to UCD or Trinity.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh Green</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2009/08/06/official-it-pays-to-pay-fees-with-or-without-blacks-laptops/#comment-70554</link>
		<author>Hugh Green</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 12:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2009/08/06/official-it-pays-to-pay-fees-with-or-without-blacks-laptops/#comment-70554</guid>
		<description>Mindblowingly awful. In general, there's more useful information to be gleaned from flushing your head down the toilet than there is in reading newspaper reports about league tables. 

What I find remarkable is how terms like 'feeder schools' are common currency and used unreflectively (to talk about top feeder schools is also to talk about bottom feeder schools), as though children were some sort of raw materials to be processed in order to 'feed' the university system. This is nothing new, it should be said. Pearse noted in The Murder Machine that 'Our common parlance has become impressed with the conception of education as some sort of manufacturing process. Our children are the ‘raw material’; we desiderate for their education ‘modern methods’ which must be efficient but cheap; we send them to Clongowes to be ‘finished’; when finished they are ‘turned out’; specialists ‘grind’ them for the English Civil Service and the so-called liberal professions'. He was also observed that 'The modern school is a State-controlled institution designed to produce workers for the State, and is in the same category with a dockyard or any other State-controlled institution which produces articles necessary to the progress, well-being, and defence of the State.'. 

And that was more than 90 years ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mindblowingly awful. In general, there&#8217;s more useful information to be gleaned from flushing your head down the toilet than there is in reading newspaper reports about league tables. </p>
<p>What I find remarkable is how terms like &#8216;feeder schools&#8217; are common currency and used unreflectively (to talk about top feeder schools is also to talk about bottom feeder schools), as though children were some sort of raw materials to be processed in order to &#8216;feed&#8217; the university system. This is nothing new, it should be said. Pearse noted in The Murder Machine that &#8216;Our common parlance has become impressed with the conception of education as some sort of manufacturing process. Our children are the ‘raw material’; we desiderate for their education ‘modern methods’ which must be efficient but cheap; we send them to Clongowes to be ‘finished’; when finished they are ‘turned out’; specialists ‘grind’ them for the English Civil Service and the so-called liberal professions&#8217;. He was also observed that &#8216;The modern school is a State-controlled institution designed to produce workers for the State, and is in the same category with a dockyard or any other State-controlled institution which produces articles necessary to the progress, well-being, and defence of the State.&#8217;. </p>
<p>And that was more than 90 years ago.</p>
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		<title>By: Donal</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2009/08/06/official-it-pays-to-pay-fees-with-or-without-blacks-laptops/#comment-70552</link>
		<author>Donal</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 11:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2009/08/06/official-it-pays-to-pay-fees-with-or-without-blacks-laptops/#comment-70552</guid>
		<description>Prof. Borooah, whose primary degree is from cambridge would have only scored two points for a feeder school. Your absolutely right londoner. The point is not whether UCD and TCD are rated higher on international ratings for universities (those ratings will have to wait for another day). By ignoring the types of courses rather thatn a clumsy "type of institution" analysis the IT list is showing its true colours.

As a teacher in a less "dominant" cachement area I'm sceptical that lists like these have any value at all. In the case of the IT list and this "comprehensive" adaptation It's clear that its value is very narrow and in my view very calculated.

In my opinion these lists are created, designed, skewed and presented with one purpose only: To convince the average middle class IT reader that;

a) The fees they're paying will get their kids into the universities that they value (UCD and TCD)

b) To convince those who are outside of that system and cachement area that the status that fees buy is worthwhile.

In other words making those shelling out feel better about doing it and those not shelling out feel bad about themselves. In a word: Marketing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prof. Borooah, whose primary degree is from cambridge would have only scored two points for a feeder school. Your absolutely right londoner. The point is not whether UCD and TCD are rated higher on international ratings for universities (those ratings will have to wait for another day). By ignoring the types of courses rather thatn a clumsy &#8220;type of institution&#8221; analysis the IT list is showing its true colours.</p>
<p>As a teacher in a less &#8220;dominant&#8221; cachement area I&#8217;m sceptical that lists like these have any value at all. In the case of the IT list and this &#8220;comprehensive&#8221; adaptation It&#8217;s clear that its value is very narrow and in my view very calculated.</p>
<p>In my opinion these lists are created, designed, skewed and presented with one purpose only: To convince the average middle class IT reader that;</p>
<p>a) The fees they&#8217;re paying will get their kids into the universities that they value (UCD and TCD)</p>
<p>b) To convince those who are outside of that system and cachement area that the status that fees buy is worthwhile.</p>
<p>In other words making those shelling out feel better about doing it and those not shelling out feel bad about themselves. In a word: Marketing.</p>
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		<title>By: Londoner</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2009/08/06/official-it-pays-to-pay-fees-with-or-without-blacks-laptops/#comment-70550</link>
		<author>Londoner</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 09:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2009/08/06/official-it-pays-to-pay-fees-with-or-without-blacks-laptops/#comment-70550</guid>
		<description>The research seems (based on reading the IT piece) genuinely ill concieved, indeed had it been published on an April 1 it would be a lot less surpising. But as far as it goes that's fair enough, after all university researchers throw up all kinds of stuff over the course of a year of highly varied value and standard. The real tragedy is the Irish Times report which is utterly uncritical and unbelievably lazy. Writing as a journalist any hack worth their salt should have been right on the blower to the president of UL wondering to what extent they agree with the proposition: a first class engineering degree from his institution is less well regarded than a pass in Greek &#38; Roman Civ from an even number post code in Dublin. Obviously the real question is whether schools should be judged based on the number of pupils going direct to third level - with no weighting even for whether those kids that did go on got their first choice and not even the pretence that schools ought to be judged on the extent to which they help kids fulfill their own potential in whatever direction that takes them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The research seems (based on reading the IT piece) genuinely ill concieved, indeed had it been published on an April 1 it would be a lot less surpising. But as far as it goes that&#8217;s fair enough, after all university researchers throw up all kinds of stuff over the course of a year of highly varied value and standard. The real tragedy is the Irish Times report which is utterly uncritical and unbelievably lazy. Writing as a journalist any hack worth their salt should have been right on the blower to the president of UL wondering to what extent they agree with the proposition: a first class engineering degree from his institution is less well regarded than a pass in Greek &amp; Roman Civ from an even number post code in Dublin. Obviously the real question is whether schools should be judged based on the number of pupils going direct to third level - with no weighting even for whether those kids that did go on got their first choice and not even the pretence that schools ought to be judged on the extent to which they help kids fulfill their own potential in whatever direction that takes them.</p>
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