Comments on: In Defence of Consumerism: The Dubliner’s Opinion

By: Irish Left Review - Lisbon and Immigration: Why Ireland Voted No

Irish Left Review - Lisbon and Immigration: Why Ireland Voted No — Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:06:33 +0000

[…] thicks and spongers. As Michael Zweig argues definitions of working class should be significantly broader: “[Working class people] are skilled and unskilled, in manufacturing and in services, men and […]

By: Sam

Sam — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:19:05 +0000

O’ Byrne starts his article by saying his middle class status had nothing to do with his actions, that he was born into it and that was that, as if social class in Ireland was some sort of caste system, and then went on to talk about car ownership, income level and ‘conservative political views’ of all things being determinants of social class, all things which one is very much in control of.
A very muddled article.
I’ve read three articles in the Dubliner and they’ve all been piss poor

By: Donagh

Donagh — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:42:37 +0000

Thanks Michael, your update puts the issues into even sharper relief.

By: Michael Taft

Michael Taft — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:49:52 +0000

Sorry for getting to this late but clearly this is a major fault-line in politics today - the issue of who has how much or, rather, how many have how little. Because this is clouded with sloppy references to ‘middle class’ and ‘working class’ and ‘coping class’ and ‘new middle class’ and ‘aspiring middle class’ (you get the idea), it is of great benefit that Donagh and Conor are taking up this issue. As my first post in the new year I have updated the material Donagh linked to, using the new EU Living Survey - http://notesonthefront.typepad.com/politicaleconomy/2008/01/post.html#more

By: Sean Baite

Sean Baite — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:11:55 +0000

I have issued a statement, through my lawyers, to affirm that the little Seán, in those photos, on certain pistes, is not my good self.

By: Donagh

Donagh — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 13:12:31 +0000

Thanks people for your comments. They’re much appreciated.

WorldbyStorm it seems clear that Robert O’Byrne used the labour saving device known as a Google search engine when preparing his piece. I suspect that finding a dearth of studies on class in Ireland that he alighted on Conor’s analysis. It should have been a god send to a journalist, but instead, because it was a ‘personal analysis’ and not on produced by a marketing company he poo-pooed it.

Ben? Thanks Conor.

Hugh, very good point. I wished I’d thought of that when I was writing it.

Cheers Eamonn.

Thiftcriminal: Zweig makes the point about people thinking they have a middle class lifestyle and it ties into what you say. They can afford to buy a €30 DVD player and still assume that because they’re able to buy electronic goods that they’re living the lifestyle. Meanwhile the real middle class can afford to buy a better DVD player. Of course, the real reason why those at the top prefer the majority at the bottom to think that they are middle class consumers rather than working class individuals is because then they are more likely to think that they are one of the winners in the system and thus be less likely to agitate for better wages and conditions. It was like that in the last Election. The thinking broadly was: things are going swimmingly, we have never been better off, lets vote Fianna Fail.

Tomaltach: Thanks. I don’t expect Mr. White to read these comments, and I certainly won’t be writing a 200 word letter with which to respond to one of his articles. Now if HE WAS willing to offer the space to write 2000 words, well that would be a different matter. We’ll have to see.

By: Tomaltach

Tomaltach — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:19:53 +0000

Donagh,
Excellent excellent post. I find it interesting that Mr. White actually agreed with the fundamental point that income and class are not the same thing. He says the magazine is not as cynical as you imagine. Mr White now has a perfect opportunity to show this, if he can offer you the space to respond to Mr. O’Byrne’s article. As you suggest there is absolutely now way you can do this in 200 words. But perhaps with 2000 you might be able to produce the essence of your repost.

So go on Mr White, demonstrate the value of plurality of opinion and let Donagh put his arguments forward!

By: Thriftcriminal

Thriftcriminal — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:34:07 +0000

I enjoyed the post. Though, as is often the case, I probably did so because I agreed with it quite strongly. Much of the spending and consumerism in Ireland is aspirational, buoyed buy the ever-ready credit we all hear so much about. I am a relatively poor consumer, I typically eschew credit where possible. In modern economic terms I am a bad penny, hence the handle. I’d also hasten to remind people of another interesting article by DMcW, where he refers to the blue-ing up of the white collar professions. Fundamentally the value chain for everything we buy is being squeezed to ultimately earn more cash for those at the top of the pile. The cash may go around the economy faster because we all think we are richer and can suddenly buy more but this means very little in terms of class and ultimately undermines us all. My favourite example is the €30 dvd player. The only way this can arrive on our shelves in Ireland is by every link in the chain that produced it shaving their margins as much as is possible and using the cheapest resources available. Consequently the embedded SW engineer and IC designer that used to do quite well in Ireland now finds themselves significantly less comfortable and more of a commodity than a valued employee. I don’t agree with this race to the bottom, my immediate reaction is throw up the barriers and screw the global economy, but I guess the more successful thing to do is adapt.

By: Eamonn

Eamonn — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:56:11 +0000

Excelllent piece

By: Hugh Green

Hugh Green — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:34:02 +0000

Well said Donagh. The biggest problem with Robert O’Byrne’s piece, I think, is to think he can get away with determining class in solidly bourgeois terms and then from this make the claim that everyone is middle class nowadays.