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	<title>Comments on: CLASS IN IRELAND: AN IMMODEST PROPOSAL</title>
	<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/</link>
	<description>It's a group blog. What more do you need to know?</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:23:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: conor</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-36323</link>
		<author>conor</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:38:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-36323</guid>
		<description>Thanks, tomaltach. Much appreciated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, tomaltach. Much appreciated.</p>
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		<title>By: Tomaltach</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-36314</link>
		<author>Tomaltach</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:11:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-36314</guid>
		<description>should read 'revectored in order to represent those who are &lt;b&gt;disempowered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>should read &#8216;revectored in order to represent those who are <b>disempowered.</b></p>
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		<title>By: Tomaltach</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-36313</link>
		<author>Tomaltach</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:10:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-36313</guid>
		<description>Hi Conor,
Excellent debate. 

I just wanted to agree with your argument that the only way to make the progress is by effective parliamentary democracy. i.e one which is representative, efficient, transparent, accountable, and where integrity is a core value. But I think building that democracy will require a cultural foundation which appears to be absent: i.e people think Bertie is lying or corrupt but still vote for him etc. Plus the vicious circle - in order for the system to be revectored to represent those who are empowered the latter have to vote and vote smartly. But they won't vote, or simply vote along parish pump of clientelist lines, because the 'system' as they see it, does'nt really work for them. But yes, I suppose we have to start somehwere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Conor,<br />
Excellent debate. </p>
<p>I just wanted to agree with your argument that the only way to make the progress is by effective parliamentary democracy. i.e one which is representative, efficient, transparent, accountable, and where integrity is a core value. But I think building that democracy will require a cultural foundation which appears to be absent: i.e people think Bertie is lying or corrupt but still vote for him etc. Plus the vicious circle - in order for the system to be revectored to represent those who are empowered the latter have to vote and vote smartly. But they won&#8217;t vote, or simply vote along parish pump of clientelist lines, because the &#8217;system&#8217; as they see it, does&#8217;nt really work for them. But yes, I suppose we have to start somehwere.</p>
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		<title>By: Dublin Opinion &#183; OCCUPATIONS IN IRELAND: A CLASS ANALYSIS</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-35688</link>
		<author>Dublin Opinion &#183; OCCUPATIONS IN IRELAND: A CLASS ANALYSIS</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:52:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-35688</guid>
		<description>[...] Tuesday, and again on Thursday, this blog turned to the ideas of Michael Zweig, in an effort to throw some [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Tuesday, and again on Thursday, this blog turned to the ideas of Michael Zweig, in an effort to throw some [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Conor McCabe</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-35395</link>
		<author>Conor McCabe</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 14:00:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-35395</guid>
		<description>Hi Litter, you're getting syndicalism mixed up with social democracy. But, the answer to how power is addressed is actually quite simple - it's called parliamentary democracy in politics, and trade unionism in the workplace. The idea of a strong union movement and a strong, representative, working class party, is to fight your corner. It's not about taking over and setting up a socialist republic. It's actually something a lot more simple. It's called social democracy. and we do not have that in Ireland. Yet. 

The problem, I think, with ideas around working class in Ireland, is that the usage and terms of debate have been set by the far-left and the right-wing conservative middle class. to talk of even social democracy is to be alligned with Joe higgins in this country. and joe higgins would call me a sell-out. 

I'm talking about the establishment of a genuine social democracy in Ireland, on par with the Eurpoean model. mixed economy, liberal social agenda. Decent public services in education, health, transport, and pensions.

In order for that to happen, you need a parliamentary deomcracy run on class lines cos, guess what, that's how capitalist economies work. class lines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Litter, you&#8217;re getting syndicalism mixed up with social democracy. But, the answer to how power is addressed is actually quite simple - it&#8217;s called parliamentary democracy in politics, and trade unionism in the workplace. The idea of a strong union movement and a strong, representative, working class party, is to fight your corner. It&#8217;s not about taking over and setting up a socialist republic. It&#8217;s actually something a lot more simple. It&#8217;s called social democracy. and we do not have that in Ireland. Yet. </p>
<p>The problem, I think, with ideas around working class in Ireland, is that the usage and terms of debate have been set by the far-left and the right-wing conservative middle class. to talk of even social democracy is to be alligned with Joe higgins in this country. and joe higgins would call me a sell-out. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m talking about the establishment of a genuine social democracy in Ireland, on par with the Eurpoean model. mixed economy, liberal social agenda. Decent public services in education, health, transport, and pensions.</p>
<p>In order for that to happen, you need a parliamentary deomcracy run on class lines cos, guess what, that&#8217;s how capitalist economies work. class lines.</p>
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		<title>By: Conor McCabe</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-35394</link>
		<author>Conor McCabe</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 13:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-35394</guid>
		<description>thanks Niall. you hit the nail on the head with the "people aren't going to alter their thinking on the basis of that argument." That's why I'm calling for a Gramscian approach. This is only part of it. 

As for the idea that the Irish people are "congenitally aspirational" and "wasn’t it the backbone of our politics for about 400 years?" the answer to that is, well, no.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks Niall. you hit the nail on the head with the &#8220;people aren&#8217;t going to alter their thinking on the basis of that argument.&#8221; That&#8217;s why I&#8217;m calling for a Gramscian approach. This is only part of it. </p>
<p>As for the idea that the Irish people are &#8220;congenitally aspirational&#8221; and &#8220;wasn’t it the backbone of our politics for about 400 years?&#8221; the answer to that is, well, no.</p>
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		<title>By: Niall</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-35391</link>
		<author>Niall</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 13:25:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-35391</guid>
		<description>Well-presented argument, Conor, but it seems to be just reworking the definitions. The people you ascribe to the working class category aren't going to alter their thinking on that basis. Irish people are congenitally aspirational - wasn't it the backbone of our politics for about 400 years? If class isn't just about money, can it be said to be just about power either? Does the  non-management office worker move from working class to middle class the minute he gets a promotion? Nobody expects to be in a position like that for ever, so how do you politicise such a diverse and transitional body of people? Does using a methodology of class even help when trying to represent their interests?

McWilliams might be an annoying 'celebrity intellectual' but he is smack on the money when he brings the generational aspect of the power structure into play. The people who benefitted from the boom were by and large people who had assets before the economy ignited - people in their late 20s and upwards who naturally had houses or small businesses set up by 1997 with no cognition of the economic transformation that was to take place - what McWilliams terms 'accidental millionaires', but also a large group of people who benefitted more modestly but still quite significantly as the value of their assets rocketed.

These are the people the government and for the most part of the mainstream media have been representing for the past 10 years, the people who've been telling us we've never had it so good. If/when the economy turns they will still be relatively unscathed; those who were trailing in their wake, the ones that have been trying to clamber up the ladder for the past few years and putting up with spiralling house prices and inflation will be left wondering what they had been chasing all along. The big shame will be that the social services that should have been put in place to lead us out of the boom have not.

I think it would be a huge omission to discuss class along the lines of where people were born or how much they earn without bringing age into it. It's not just a case of class being some identifying mark that defines you from birth to death, but whether you should trust anybody over 40.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well-presented argument, Conor, but it seems to be just reworking the definitions. The people you ascribe to the working class category aren&#8217;t going to alter their thinking on that basis. Irish people are congenitally aspirational - wasn&#8217;t it the backbone of our politics for about 400 years? If class isn&#8217;t just about money, can it be said to be just about power either? Does the  non-management office worker move from working class to middle class the minute he gets a promotion? Nobody expects to be in a position like that for ever, so how do you politicise such a diverse and transitional body of people? Does using a methodology of class even help when trying to represent their interests?</p>
<p>McWilliams might be an annoying &#8216;celebrity intellectual&#8217; but he is smack on the money when he brings the generational aspect of the power structure into play. The people who benefitted from the boom were by and large people who had assets before the economy ignited - people in their late 20s and upwards who naturally had houses or small businesses set up by 1997 with no cognition of the economic transformation that was to take place - what McWilliams terms &#8216;accidental millionaires&#8217;, but also a large group of people who benefitted more modestly but still quite significantly as the value of their assets rocketed.</p>
<p>These are the people the government and for the most part of the mainstream media have been representing for the past 10 years, the people who&#8217;ve been telling us we&#8217;ve never had it so good. If/when the economy turns they will still be relatively unscathed; those who were trailing in their wake, the ones that have been trying to clamber up the ladder for the past few years and putting up with spiralling house prices and inflation will be left wondering what they had been chasing all along. The big shame will be that the social services that should have been put in place to lead us out of the boom have not.</p>
<p>I think it would be a huge omission to discuss class along the lines of where people were born or how much they earn without bringing age into it. It&#8217;s not just a case of class being some identifying mark that defines you from birth to death, but whether you should trust anybody over 40.</p>
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		<title>By: Donagh</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-35345</link>
		<author>Donagh</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:33:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-35345</guid>
		<description>The idea of power is not about having the right to make decisions in a business context. It is rather about affecting the values that underpin the society and ensuring that when it comes to distributing the wealth that they get their fair share. They can only do this if, firstly they realize that they do not form part of the professional middle class (no matter how much their house is going for on the open market) and secondly that, as a group, they have to start acting together to influence the thinking that underpin the economic values of the society as a whole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The idea of power is not about having the right to make decisions in a business context. It is rather about affecting the values that underpin the society and ensuring that when it comes to distributing the wealth that they get their fair share. They can only do this if, firstly they realize that they do not form part of the professional middle class (no matter how much their house is going for on the open market) and secondly that, as a group, they have to start acting together to influence the thinking that underpin the economic values of the society as a whole.</p>
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		<title>By: Littler</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-35327</link>
		<author>Littler</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-35327</guid>
		<description>All very interesting. But can you explain how the imbalance in power should be addressed? If it is all about power, is it true that everyone should have equal amounts? Take business for example, how would company function if the CEO only had the same level of power as a line worker? Who would make the decisions? How would they be made? Should a line worker with less experience and less ability be allowed equal power to make decisions as an experienced entrepreneur who created the business and the jobs in the first place?

Somehow, I think we have been here before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All very interesting. But can you explain how the imbalance in power should be addressed? If it is all about power, is it true that everyone should have equal amounts? Take business for example, how would company function if the CEO only had the same level of power as a line worker? Who would make the decisions? How would they be made? Should a line worker with less experience and less ability be allowed equal power to make decisions as an experienced entrepreneur who created the business and the jobs in the first place?</p>
<p>Somehow, I think we have been here before.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Taft</title>
		<link>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-35305</link>
		<author>Michael Taft</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 06:39:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dublinopinion.com/2007/09/18/class-in-ireland-an-immodest-proposal/#comment-35305</guid>
		<description>If we continue to get such clear analysis as this we will be in danger of breaking out into rational political discussion.  With Bank of Ireland's Private Banking telling us that the top 1% own 34% of all financial wealth, we not only fall back on Gramasci, as WBS suggests, but even Connolly (though I know he is really out of fashion) when he talks about all workers, whether by hands or by brains.  With the CSO Census volume on occupations and social class coming out tomorrow (September 20th), hopefully Conor you will continue your work in this area.  We'll all benefit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we continue to get such clear analysis as this we will be in danger of breaking out into rational political discussion.  With Bank of Ireland&#8217;s Private Banking telling us that the top 1% own 34% of all financial wealth, we not only fall back on Gramasci, as WBS suggests, but even Connolly (though I know he is really out of fashion) when he talks about all workers, whether by hands or by brains.  With the CSO Census volume on occupations and social class coming out tomorrow (September 20th), hopefully Conor you will continue your work in this area.  We&#8217;ll all benefit.</p>
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